scam questions

[SAILOR48]

If your trying to say here, that a NICEIC/ECA enrolled person will guarantee competency, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried!!

No I am not saying anything, I am asking a question

If they employ some one who is not NIC/ECA how could they know they are competent?

 

[Engineer54]

No I am not saying anything, I am asking a question

If they employ some one who is not NIC/ECA how could they know they are competent?

Your question implies that a registered NICEIC/ECA electrician are all competent, which we all know is nothing like the truth of the matter!!

So tell me, do you consider that a electrician flashing a NICEIC/ECA card in front of you, means he is competent??

Most GOOD electricians, (be they registered with a scam or not), gain a lot of work by recommendations, generally by word of mouth. So the time proven method of asking for recent past references etc, would be the route i'd go.

 

[SAILOR48]

Your question implies that a registered NICEIC/ECA electrician are all competent, which we all know is nothing like the truth of the matter!!Agreed
So tell me, do you consider that a electrician flashing a NICEIC/ECA card in front of you, means he is competent?? A good chance yes


Most GOOD electricians, (be they registered with a scam or not), gain a lot of work by recommendations, generally by word of mouth. So the time proven method of asking for recent past references etc, would be the route i'd go.AS WELL

This is my opinion after 40 years in the game
If you are carrying out any worth while commercial works, especially with a design element to it, the specifier will usually insist on NIC or ECA maybe other, full scheme membership, plus indemnity insurance for the design.
Whether you like it or not, this is the case.
If I were employing a company to carry out works for my customers, I would take it as a given that they would be in recognised scheme I would prefer the one which offers the customer, back up with warranties and bonds.
Most of the sites I work on insist on ECS cards as well
Obviously this would only be part of my judgment who to employ.
Its all wrong I know that there are probably good companies who are not in the schemes for what ever reasons but if you want to get on you will have to join one.
I am not stating that this is a good thing or a judgment on any one who isn’t in one.
I think they are becoming a racket with a lot of unnecessary costs.
If we can gets a better system going all well and good but for now, I think these are the facts.
Please don’t get the hump with me, I would rather save the money and not have to bother with all the rigmarole but I would get little work without it.

 

[Engineer54]

I'm not getting the hump with you...lol!!

But the real truth of the matter, is as you have stated, that all these scam registration bodies are now run in a Racket Mode. Long gone are the day's when being a NICEIC registered contractor actually meant anything, it's now a matter of ''money rules OK!!'' lol!! In all probability, it'll be your insurance cover that is claimed against, not these scams insurance company!!

I'd put it to you that it would take a bomb under these scam providers to get any satisfaction out of them, that goes for the contractor or the customer. The most you'll ever achieve is a half hearted compromise, unless decent solicitors get involved...


Going what i've witnessed here, as regards to scam registered so-called electricians, I would most certainly not be impressed in the slightest by anyone flashing a scam card, ...i'd be far more impressed if the same electrician then flashed a JIB gold card at me!! lol!!

 

[trev]

@sailor48 It's 30 years since I qualified and I refuse to join a scam until it is a legal requirement, the vast majority of the work I get is commercial and a lot comes through word of mouth, it's worth far more than any piece of plastic I could carry.

 

[SAILOR48]

Sorry not sure what you are saying, don’t know what a scam card is.
I guess by JIB you mean an ECS gold card as I said before you wouldn’t get on most of the sites I work on without one (Maybe a basic CSCS if you were a Labrador)
Yes I know people can run businesses and work without any of this stuff, word of mouth mates and contacts that have been built up over the years.
It was a different world then Didn’t have to much health and safety ,never heard of risk assessment, method statements etc and all the other bulls***(Even completion certs )
The OP was asking what he should do for the future ,the days are passed when you turn up on a site with a bag of tools and make it up as you went along.
I have questions do you think that you would have a better chance, of getting quality work being in a scheme or not, that is the question ,
How would you convince a new client that you would perform and warranty your works?

 

[Engineer54]

Sorry not sure what you are saying, don’t know what a scam card is.
I guess by JIB you mean an ECS gold card as I said before you wouldn’t get on most of the sites I work on without one (Maybe a basic CSCS if you were a Labrador)
Yes I know people can run businesses and work without any of this stuff, word of mouth mates and contacts that have been built up over the years.
It was a different world then Didn’t have to much health and safety ,never heard of risk assessment, method statements etc and all the other bulls***(Even completion certs )
The OP was asking what he should do for the future ,the days are passed when you turn up on a site with a bag of tools and make it up as you went along.
I have questions do you think that you would have a better chance, of getting quality work being in a scheme or not, that is the question ,
How would you convince a new client that you would perform and warranty your works?

I'm saying (and quite clearly i thought) that being registered with a scam provider WILL NOT guarantee anything!! lol!!

As for you quoting HSE etc, the only things they have contributed to any industry is utter chaos!!

You are also talking about a time, when a qualified electrician was exactly that, ...Qualified!!
Today, your all on a losing battle, where price over qualifications and experience will in most cases be the deciding factor!! lol!!

 

[yellowvanman]

If I were starting out again,Part p can be forgotten, so unless there is going to be some sort of gravy train doing 3rd party inspections,it would be a waste of money
That would in my opinion rule out Elecsa, Napit and to a large extent the Eca.

Can I ask why?

I'm with Elecsa and ECA, they are there working for you the contractor. Also as an added benefit you can get BUPA cover at a very good price!

Any issues I get with someone specifying NICEIC only, I get the guy from the local ECA office to give them a call to put the right!

 

[SAILOR48]

I guess it depends on what you want from life.
I feel that life on site is a lot safer now than it used to be, at least the people around you have some idea how to behave safely, people using machinery are trained, and trades men have some sort of credentials.
You are instructed what to do if an emergency should occur. There are first aid people about
No I don’t think H&E is perfect at all, Nothings perfect but it’s better than nothing.
As to the other their are no guarantees in life and yes the ECA are quite useful but they are taking the p**s with there charging.

If you customers are only interested in the price get better customers.

 

[Engineer54]

I'm with Elecsa and ECA, they are there working for you the contractor.

​

Only in your wildest dreams!! They are there, working for themselves, you are way down the list of the companies priorities.

 

[SAILOR48]

I'm saying (and quite clearly i thought) that being registered with a scam provider WILL NOT guarantee anything!! lol!!

As for you quoting HSE etc, the only things they have contributed to any industry is utter chaos!!

You are also talking about a time, when a qualified electrician was exactly that, ...Qualified!!
Today, your all on a losing battle, where price over qualifications and experience will in most cases be the deciding factor!! lol!!

How do you define qualified?

 

[telectrix]

or how do you qualify defined?

 

[Engineer54]

How do you define qualified?

Certainly not under the present definitions, or as defined by the scam providers.


But i will try and briefly give you my definition.... An electrician that has been extensively trained for a number of years under the supervision of experienced electricians. That has been progressively given more responsibility as his training progresses. Has completed at least a recognised core qualification, and preferably additional meaningful qualifications that are applicable to the requirements of a journeyman electrician.


Doesn't have to be an indentured apprentice, (GlennSpark is a pretty good example of alternative training) but that was the only way you were considered as being, a ''qualified electrician'' when i entered the industry....

Anyway, ...What would your definition of being qualified be??

 

[moddeydhoo]

time served4-5 years i did 5, city & guilds, not the easy pass exams they have now. An idiot apprentice failed part p 6 times passed the tic box first time.
to do domestic or indutrial or comercial, should all be the same. so called domestic installer in the future will go for the bigger jobs, so called domestic installer, if something goes wrong, see in court how unqualified the wigs will make them look

 

[SAILOR48]

Certainly not under the present definitions, or as defined by the scam providers.


But i will try and briefly give you my definition.... An electrician that has been extensively trained for a number of years under the supervision of experienced electricians. That has been progressively given more responsibility as his training progresses. Has completed at least a recognised core qualification, and preferably additional meaningful qualifications that are applicable to the requirements of a journeyman electrician.


Doesn't have to be an indentured apprentice, (GlennSpark is a pretty good example of alternative training) but that was the only way you were considered as being, a ''qualified electrician'' when i entered the industry....

Anyway, ...What would your definition of being qualified be??

OK good answer
What would you think about a person with no formal qualifications (say a seriously dyslectic).
But has a long history of working on site and could carry out any electrical installation works, including all documentation from (Quotation, to sign off certificates) correctly.
Could carry out any task on site with in-depth supervisory experience and responsibility of all works.
Taken that they would have a good understanding of BS 7671.

 

[trev]

OK good answer
What would you think about a person with no formal qualifications (say a seriously dyslectic).
But has a long history of working on site and could carry out any electrical installation works, including all documentation from (Quotation, to sign off certificates) correctly.
Could carry out any task on site with in-depth supervisory experience and responsibility of all works.
Taken that they would have a good understanding of BS 7671.

There are now facilities in place to train and examine dyslexics mate. My nephew is dyslexic and his training providers are bending over backwards, he's a clever lad though and will pass whatever exams he is faced with. He just has big problems reading some things and writing in a coherent way, ask him to explain what he means though...

 

[SAILOR48]

There are now facilities in place to train and examine dyslexics mate. My nephew is dyslexic and his training providers are bending over backwards, he's a clever lad though and will pass whatever exams he is faced with. He just has big problems reading some things and writing in a coherent way, ask him to explain what he means though...

OK if you wanted to start a thread on learning disabilities and becoming an electrician. I think it would be interesting.

 

[trev]

OK if you wanted to start a thread on learning disabilities and becoming an electrician. I think it would be interesting.

You brought dyslexia into the discussion not me, I was merely pointing out that it isn't the barrier that you may think any more.

Given some of the questions asked on here at times I'm not sure a learning disability is a barrier to becoming a sparky

 

[ipf]

You brought dyslexia into the discussion not me, I was merely pointing out that it isn't the barrier that you may think any more.

Given some of the questions asked on here at times I'm not sure a learning disability is a barrier to becoming a sparky

Nor learning inability ?

 

[trev]

Learning inability maybe ?

Aye, that's probably more like it mate