What has happened to the trade?

[baldyspark]

It seems that every time I check out the forum, so called qualified sparks are asking the most basic questions such as help my rcd is tripping, how do I test? Etc. So many chancers about nowadays who wouldnt know the first thing about fault finding and think Ra is a school subject. As for these courses that try to make an electrician in five weeks, they should be done for putting peoples lives at risk. Please mods take note, how come so many people disagree with the 5 week wonders yet this forum must agree as one sponsor actually provides this course?
Ill not even get started with all these domestic installers whove never even touched pyro, tray, contactors etc....

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I try and stay clear of non-electrical talk but this sort of thread does seem to do the rounds quite a bit. Electrical Trainee are useless, what a sad state of affairs electrics is in... and so on.

I'm not sure what this kind of talk really achieves, I realise that people need to let off steam and have a good old moan but it doesn't change anything. If you feel that strongly about it then write to your MP demanding change. Tell all your electrician friends to do the same and maybe even start up some kind of web page or facebook petition! If you dont feel that strongly then I guess we'll have few more of these threads.

I am a Domestic Installer, I do a good job, I follow the regulations (99% of the time, perhaps 98!) and I dont charge peanuts.

I was fed up with my main job (nurse) and I made a change at age 40 and it feels great. If you are not happy with the electrical industry then make a change in your life, its risky and scary but probably worth it. Perhaps a plumber? :wink5:

 

[baldyspark]

Sorry pal but what a load of tosh. Either someone is an electrician or they aren't in my eyes. This so called domestic installer rubbish is sadly a front for some people with limited skills and with no apprenticeship behind them. Obviously there are many good electricians working as 'domestic installers' for personal reasons but sadly too many chancers involved who not only put themselves in danger but also the general public.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Sorry pal but what a load of tosh. Either someone is an electrician or they aren't in my eyes. This so called domestic installer rubbish is sadly a front for some people with limited skills and with no apprenticeship behind them. Obviously there are many good electricians working as 'domestic installers' for personal reasons but sadly too many chancers involved who not only put themselves in danger but also the general public.

So what do you plan to do about it?

 

[baldyspark]

Maybes become a nurse then I can ask the chancers why they didnt train properly as im looking after them. Wonder if theres a short course for nursing? I could even be a nurse but all I do is change beds. A bed sheet installer.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Maybes become a nurse then I can ask the chancers why they didnt train properly as im looking after them. Wonder if theres a short course for nursing? I could even be a nurse but all I do is change beds. A bed sheet installer.

I was tempted to 'like' that post Baldy as it sounds good natured, but I just haven't a clue what it means! :smiley2:

Yes.... there is a short course for nursing!

 

[professional]

If that is the case I would inform the local education authority. They must have minimum criteria required for people working on their premises.

Any minimum criteria applies to the "enterprise" not the individual that does the work.

 

[sima24]

I think they could prevent most the problems by simply increasing the quals needed to join one of the schemes. Elecsa as a minimum you only need 17th edition, thats a 1 day course. I have not got a problem with part p, its elecsa, nic etc that are to blame as in my eyes they make it too easy for people to join them.
On the other hand a trained monkey could do most domestic tasks.

 

[dcelectrical]

I employ a Electrical Trainee and he is **** hot he has been with me for almost 2 years and I have completely reprogrammed him. I don't agree with short courses but I vaguely remember not learning too much at college either and I did the long course.

 

[guest119]

Tell all your electrician friends to do the same and maybe even start up some kind of web page or facebook petition!



Or maybe an ELECTRICIANS FORUM????


Boydy

 

[Des 56]

Here is food for thought

You never know,us older ones may start forgetting a lot of what we were taught,aghh

Could we become the future 5wws,this time with reversed polarity,we could even be hawked out before we get to become 1 dayers

 

[guest119]

I try and stay clear of non-electrical talk but this sort of thread does seem to do the rounds quite a bit. Electrical Trainee are useless, what a sad state of affairs electrics is in... and so on.

I'm not sure what this kind of talk really achieves, I realise that people need to let off steam and have a good old moan but it doesn't change anything. If you feel that strongly about it then write to your MP demanding change. Tell all your electrician friends to do the same and maybe even start up some kind of web page or facebook petition! If you dont feel that strongly then I guess we'll have few more of these threads.

I am a Domestic Installer, I do a good job, I follow the regulations (99% of the time, perhaps 98!) and I dont charge peanuts.

I was fed up with my main job (nurse) and I made a change at age 40 and it feels great. If you are not happy with the electrical industry then make a change in your life, its risky and scary but probably worth it. Perhaps a plumber? :wink5:

Like maybe ELECTRICIANS FORUM ?????????????
Like this one would be if all the fakes/imposters/sham scam boys were banned.
Then we could talk to each other properly without being disturbed by some a hole wanting to know why his rcd is tripping or why sockets mcb blows when there is a wallpaper stripper working in the room, geezzz, talk about dumb down ffs.
But then of course Dan wouldnt get the advertising revenue because his web hits would be down.


Boydy

 

[Hawkmoon]

Sorry to pee on your thread,but you have to blame the death rate caused by faulty electrical installations
It just isn't high enough for a sympathetic hearing

If it ever was to get a lot lot higher, then there would be possibility of action
Possible but not probable

Agree totally

Despite the best efforts of the incompetent, electrical installations are inherently safe enough that the numbers of fatalities etc is unlikely to increase - government and Nic etc will continue to endorse these 'quick qual courses' - the Electrical Trainee course providers are unfortunately not going out of business anytime soon.

:nonod:

 

[Sintra]

Like maybe ELECTRICIANS FORUM ?????????????
Like this one would be if all the fakes/imposters/sham scam boys were banned.
Then we could talk to each other properly without being disturbed by some a hole wanting to know why his rcd is tripping or why sockets mcb blows when there is a wallpaper stripper working in the room, geezzz, talk about dumb down ffs.
But then of course Dan wouldnt get the advertising revenue because his web hits would be down.


Boydy

That's why we have started the DIY section of the forum and members can choose wether or not to post in it. Nobody is held at gunpoint to reply to anything they don't want to.

 

[guest119]

In Northern Ireland there is no such thing as a Electrical Trainee wonder. Any person that wishes to become an electrician completes a proper 4 year apprenticeship. There is no easy way in through the door. Why can the same not apply to the rest of the uk? Obviously these short courses are backed by the government by way of this part p nonsense. Surely if an electrician had to be time served then this part p nonsense could be forgotten about.

Rest my case.

Boydy

 

[Guest55]

the diy section is a great addition to the forum.

the fact i wont step foot in there for 1 second is the best endorsement i can give ;-)

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Until the industry grows some balls and insists that government legistrates so that all electricians are licenced with a certified level of competence NOTHING will change!
If you agree +1 this post and when we get to 1,000 I'll forward it to my MP.

Good luck mate, and i am on your side, but it will never happen. We already have a more than acceptable standard. Apprentice trained, appropriate other qualifications etc etc.

The "Short Courses" C&G 17th, inspect and test etc should be seen as supplementary to the apprenticeship or incorporated into it.

We cant overlook the sparks out there with no formal quals, there are plenty of sparks with grandfather rights, and we need to include these people. They have worked up though the ranks and seen a lot of change over a long period of time, and could probably write the apprenticeships and other courses even though they have never done any of them.

The 5 week wonders will always be there now, and they are not all bad, some will fit into the category above and now need some formal qual for whatever reason. So they maybe a electrical trainee in qualification but could have 30 or so years experience. The ones who don't, will take another 30 years to get there, you cant teach experience.

What makes life easier for electrical trainee is the fact that the people who push pens for a living have no concept of what an Electrical Apprenticeship involves or how long it takes. The only want to see the 17th edition qualification, and in their "Expert" opinion, this is the be all and end all qualification, and without it you are not an Electrician. If only they knew that the 17th edition is a course on how to find information from a book, and nothing more, then they could ask for an Argos Catalogue qualification and save us all the agro.

Cheers............Howard

 

[guest119]

Ive got Screwfix catalogue knowledge howard, does that count?

boydy

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Ive got Screwfix catalogue knowledge howard, does that count?

boydy

NOW NOW don't be silly! You know the screwfix catalogue is much more difficult to use than the regs, you are now into HNC territory.

 

[Guest55]

Ive got Screwfix catalogue knowledge howard, does that count?

boydy

prove it , whats trade price on a dozen tubes of gripfill ?

;-)

 

[telectrix]

prove it , whats trade price on a dozen tubes of gripfill ?

;-)

£23.15 + vat.

 

[wigglies]

I'm a registered electrician that did a 4 week course... I'd like to point out that actually the industry can attract experienced, motivated and intelligent people by offering a 4 week course. I've worked for 18 years in other industries, including 16 years in aviation in the RN. The standards and adherence to regulations that were instilled in me from the RN are immediately relevant and transferable to being an electrician. I can't condone people being and ignorant and reckless, But I actually think the issue is more to do with maturity and integrity than simply a lack of a 4 year apprenticeship, which great as it may be, I'd never have embarked on if it had been my only way into the industry.

 

[Engineer54]

Before we go any further, you are NOT an electrician, not with just a 4 week course under your belt, of that i can assure you!!

Not sure what you're trying to convince us of here, but whatever it is it'll not convince the qualified electricians here, that a 4 week course with a meaningless qualification at the end of it will make ANYONE competent (let alone become an electrician) to go into unsuspecting peoples homes and start mucking around with electric's.

There are far better ways of learning this trade and becoming qualified, for those older entrants, but it's going to take you a damned sight longer than 4 weeks. The reason you chose getting into the electrical industry, is because it's been made far too easy for any Tom Dick or Harry to get in via the backdoor!!

 

[wigglies]

Before we go any further, you are NOT an electrician, not with just a 4 week course under your belt, of that i can assure you!!

Not sure what you're trying to convince us of here, but whatever it is it'll not convince the qualified electricians here, that a 4 week course with a meaningless qualification at the end of it will make ANYONE competent (let alone become an electrician) to go into unsuspecting peoples homes and start mucking around with electric's.

There are far better ways of learning this trade and becoming qualified, for those older entrants, but it's going to take you a damned sight longer than 4 weeks. The reason you chose getting into the electrical industry, is because it's been made far too easy for any Tom Dick or Harry to get in via the backdoor!!

I can totally understand where you're coming from - if you've spent many years building a skill base, knowledge, a business, loyal customers etc and have become a consummate and very experienced professional, then some 4-weeker upstart calling themselves an electrician is going to grate a little bit. But I'm more of an electrician that some hapless DIYer who simply knows how to make a circuit work regardless of whether it's safe or not. So I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

However, competence is not the same as experience - Engineer54 i'm guessing you are competent AND experienced. Competent is defined as having sufficient training - and if on a job I'm faced with something that I don't understand, then I stop and either get advice & help - I certainly don't "muck around" with peoples' electrical installations. Which is where my point about integrity and maturity comes in - it means knowing your limits. Nobody knows everything - we're all on a spectrum of experience so don't put the newer guys down. Please.

 

[UNG]

I'm a registered electrician that did a 4 week course... I'd like to point out that actually the industry can attract experienced, motivated and intelligent people by offering a 4 week course. I've worked for 18 years in other industries, including 16 years in aviation in the RN. The standards and adherence to regulations that were instilled in me from the RN are immediately relevant and transferable to being an electrician. I can't condone people being and ignorant and reckless, But I actually think the issue is more to do with maturity and integrity than simply a lack of a 4 year apprenticeship, which great as it may be,

I find with all these threads that a 3, 4 or 5 week course apparently qualifies people to justify their quick entry into the industry and dismiss the 4 year apprenticeship as unnecessary and an irrelevant waste of time and effort

I'd never have embarked on if it had been my only way into the industry.

Makes me wonder what your career options would have been had the electrical industry entry requirements meant studying for a longer period of time


It seems to get forgotten that an apprenticeship involved a mix of theory (day or block release at college) and on site practical work. The theory usually involved 38 weeks day release for a minimum of 3 years to get the required City & Guilds qualifications not the few weeks to get some peripheral C & G qualifications that some believe make them "Qualified" is it any wonder that this causes so much division in this industry

 

[Engineer54]

I find with all these threads that a 3, 4 or 5 week course apparently qualifies people to justify their quick entry into the industry and dismiss the 4 year apprenticeship as unnecessary and irrelevant waste of time and effort



Makes me wonder what your career options would have been had the electrical industry entry requirements meant studying for a longer period of time


It seems to get forgotten that an apprenticeship involved a mix of theory (day or block release at college) and on site practical work. The theory usually involved 38 weeks day release for a minimum of 3 years to get the required City & Guilds qualifications not the few weeks to get some peripheral C & G qualifications that some believe make them "Qualified" is it any wonder that this causes so much division in this industry

And that's a pretty fair all round commentary, that i totally agree with!!

 

[guest119]

I'm a registered electrician that did a 4 week course... I'd like to point out that actually the industry can attract experienced, motivated and intelligent people by offering a 4 week course. I've worked for 18 years in other industries, including 16 years in aviation in the RN. The standards and adherence to regulations that were instilled in me from the RN are immediately relevant and transferable to being an electrician. I can't condone people being and ignorant and reckless, But I actually think the issue is more to do with maturity and integrity than simply a lack of a 4 year apprenticeship, which great as it may be, I'd never have embarked on if it had been my only way into the industry.

If this is a carefully constructed wind up, well done.
If you are for real.....:-------:

Boydy

 

[GMES]

4 weeks to become qualified my arse I have been on benders that have lasted longer. Have some respect for the trade you are entering. I also think training courses at mcdonalds are longer, which says it all really

 

[ipf]

I'm a registered electrician that did a 4 week course... I'd like to point out that actually the industry can attract experienced, motivated and intelligent people by offering a 4 week course. I've worked for 18 years in other industries, including 16 years in aviation in the RN. The standards and adherence to regulations that were instilled in me from the RN are immediately relevant and transferable to being an electrician. I can't condone people being and ignorant and reckless, But I actually think the issue is more to do with maturity and integrity than simply a lack of a 4 year apprenticeship, which great as it may be, I'd never have embarked on if it had been my only way into the industry.

Some good points regarding the ignorance, maturity and integrity, but it doesn't alter the fact that, no matter what standards have been instilled, they do not equate to the experience and knowledge required to be recognised as a qualified electrician.

 

[wigglies]

Some responses have suggested that I am being disrespectful, dismissive of apprenticeships and that I muck around with unsuspecting people's electrics. I wasn't aware at all that I'd given that impression - but forgive me if have.

I chose a new career in good faith and took the route that was open to me through the MOD. Although I worked bloody hard to pass C&G 2382, 2393, 2394 (and am due to take 2395) and my site inspection with NAPIT, am I to believe from this thread that in the industry these qualifications are not taken seriously? Sorry if that's a naive question but I'd like to get peoples honest thoughts.

 

[Hayeso32]

I work for a large subbie as an electrical supervisor and the j.i.b gold card as some people point out is I think the only way to prove competence. I have had some so called 5 week wonders turn up to site with plastic bags as their tool kit! But once you hand them drawings they realise they don't know what their doing and leave. That said some of the j.i.b sparks these days are only good for metalwork and when they come up against something technical they are in the same boat as the Electrical Trainee.