What has happened to the trade?

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baldyspark

It seems that every time I check out the forum, so called qualified sparks are asking the most basic questions such as help my rcd is tripping, how do I test? Etc. So many chancers about nowadays who wouldnt know the first thing about fault finding and think Ra is a school subject. As for these courses that try to make an electrician in five weeks, they should be done for putting peoples lives at risk. Please mods take note, how come so many people disagree with the 5 week wonders yet this forum must agree as one sponsor actually provides this course?
Ill not even get started with all these domestic installers whove never even touched pyro, tray, contactors etc....
 
I'm with you on this one mate someone as just started another thread in this section about wiring I'd friends tt house and to be honest he is asking such basic questions that it scares the crap out of me, something as got to be done about these guys and the schemes that are churning them out.
 
Until the industry grows some balls and insists that government legistrates so that all electricians are licenced with a certified level of competence NOTHING will change!
If you agree +1 this post and when we get to 1,000 I'll forward it to my MP.
 
In Northern Ireland there is no such thing as a Electrical Trainee wonder. Any person that wishes to become an electrician completes a proper 4 year apprenticeship. There is no easy way in through the door. Why can the same not apply to the rest of the uk? Obviously these short courses are backed by the government by way of this part p nonsense. Surely if an electrician had to be time served then this part p nonsense could be forgotten about.
 
Sorry to pee on your thread,but you have to blame the death rate caused by faulty electrical installations
It just isn't high enough for a sympathetic hearing

If it ever was to get a lot lot higher, then there would be possibility of action
Possible but not probable
 
baldyspark said:
It seems that every time I check out the forum, so called qualified sparks are asking the most basic questions such as help my rcd is tripping, how do I test? Etc. So many chancers about nowadays who wouldnt know the first thing about fault finding and think Ra is a school subject. As for these courses that try to make an electrician in five weeks, they should be done for putting peoples lives at risk. Please mods take note, how come so many people disagree with the 5 week wonders yet this forum must agree as one sponsor actually provides this course?
Ill not even get started with all these domestic installers whove never even touched pyro, tray, contactors etc....
Click to expand...
Could it be that posters are claiming to be sparks but are in fact DIYers? I think so.
The new DIY section should help.
 
Get this:

A pal of mine also in the game has made the move to domestic side. He called me yesterday and is enjoying it as it's 100% testing and remedial so easy work.

However - and here is the catch - every other tester in the company (there's 5 in total I believe) doesn't have any kind of electrical qualification yet they are allowed to read Guidance Note 3, buy a Megger and go and test these properties! Apparently, he's spending most of his time going back to these jobs and doing the most basic fault finding as the others don't know how to do it!

How on earth can this even be legal? I've told him to get back into the temps game! It's more fun
 
I think post #2 and post 6, answers the OP's question in every respect!!

They together, basically give the long and short of the sorry story, without going into too much detail!!
 
baldyspark said:
It seems that every time I check out the forum, so called qualified sparks are asking the most basic questions such as help my rcd is tripping, how do I test? Etc. So many chancers about nowadays who wouldnt know the first thing about fault finding and think Ra is a school subject. As for these courses that try to make an electrician in five weeks, they should be done for putting peoples lives at risk. Please mods take note, how come so many people disagree with the 5 week wonders yet this forum must agree as one sponsor actually provides this course?
Ill not even get started with all these domestic installers whove never even touched pyro, tray, contactors etc....
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. Not just limited to domestic now, we just lost a lighting job at a school to one! He's happy to work for 80 quid a day and let the builder supply the materials. He was also happy to extend a 6mm shower circuit, fit a 9.5kw shower and add 15 amp fusewire to the existing 30 amp 3036. No RCD, no supplementary but the builder's happy because "it works and he's a lot cheaper than you"
 
If that is the case I would inform the local education authority. They must have minimum criteria required for people working on their premises.
 
We've worked for the builder for around 12 years. They hit a quiet period and discovered that they can submit cheaper prices by using this "spark." The blurb on their website states that "we only use NICEIC approved electricians." Looks like I've got nothing to lose by reporting them does it?
 
Everywhere you look these days there are adverts saying become an electrician in x number of weeks and earn £50,000 a year the only people who win at this are the greedy people who run these courses,and sometimes I feel sorry for those who have lost their jobs and have a mortgage and family to provide for,they go into panic mode and see this as a quick fix,out of interest I wonder how many have done one of these courses and then walked away realising that they don,t know enough to make a living safely?
When my ex boss had to do a full scope part p there was a lad on the same course who knew very little and even though he passed he was ringing us up for weeks asking for advice,in the end the boss said the best advice would be to pass all his calls to us as he clearly was out of his depth.we never heard from him again.
 
I did one of the intense courses, it was a good course and gave me a good insight into the domestic industry and through hard work I achieved some good qualifications.
However, I didnt feel that I knew enough to go out and start house bashing on my own so I enrolled at college and spent 3 years compleying the C&G 2330.
I can see the attraction of the short courses as they are some what misleading in their advertising campaigns. I did mine when I left the armed forces and it gave me a good insight into the domestic world, I think a lot of it also depends on how good the training centres/companies are as well.
 
Stean,good for you going the right way,what worries me about these courses is the fact they take anyone so long as they can pay,normally there's some kind of apptitude test to see if you are capable of being a spark,as my old fella used to say "some people will never make a tradesman as long as they've got a hole in their a**e.
 
I done one of those short courses with a view to becoming a domestic installer, I'd say they are only suitable for people with a similar background that would like to change the industry they work in.

Since then I decided that I couldn't be bothered with the self-employed route and ended up doing instruments and controls for an oil company.

I'm just glad that the course was paid by my voluntary redundancy, I'd be a bit peeved if it were my own money :frown:
 
baldyspark said:
It seems that every time I check out the forum, so called qualified sparks are asking the most basic questions such as help my rcd is tripping, how do I test? Etc. So many chancers about nowadays who wouldnt know the first thing about fault finding and think Ra is a school subject. As for these courses that try to make an electrician in five weeks, they should be done for putting peoples lives at risk. Please mods take note, how come so many people disagree with the 5 week wonders yet this forum must agree as one sponsor actually provides this course?
Ill not even get started with all these domestic installers whove never even touched pyro, tray, contactors etc....
Click to expand...

Forumwise I think you have to remember that we have guys on here doing training, guys on here who have only just completed a course, guys on here who are just even thinking about a course and asking about what they're reading online about the courses etc.

Coursewise I think you have to remember that there are all types of courses available for all types of reasons. Short and long ones. Doesn't make a sparky any better or worse if they've passed a short course or a long one, they're still new to the trade and will yet to learn the experience side of things.

The industry as a whole has suffered a lot since 2008 and it's not repaired yet. People will always want to get into a trade, and sparky's and plumbers are common trades people like to think they'll enjoy doing.

I think when you spot a lot of sparks asking basic questions, you'd find they've only done one certain course for one certain type of job they want to take on - maybe? Not everybody wants to do the full works for domestic, commercial, etc etc etc.
 
Hmm, not a good reply Dan, full of holes and wrong terminology (ie, short course , long course still a spark. No, Only JIB/ apprenticeship produces a spark. As most agencies are now realising and specifying so. )

This forum is titled Electricians Forum.(sparks)

Boydy
 
the above posts just serve to highlight why i only work in the commercial / construction sector - you simply dont get on site without a JIB gold card for 95% of contracts which keeps the chancers , clueless & fast track brigade firmly at the gates.
 
Personally I think a lot of the seemingly basic questions asked on here by electricians (?) are simply asked in the wrong way.If a guy comes on here and honestly states his background and lack of experience and then asks a 'basic' question I dont have a problem with that,nor does anyone else it seems to me. All too often though they reel off a list of qualifications and big themselves up and then ask why an RCD is tripping.....no wonder they get abuse on here.
It also appears to me rightly or wrongly that many short course merchants (I assume?) bursting with knowledge seem to regard themselves as the electrical police,and usually come on here with tales of appallingly dangerous work by John Wayne and his posse that they have had to put right....only trouble is they dont actually know how it should be done and have to ask on here....so how do they know it's dangerous in the first place?
 
I have never seen the trade so low or undervalued and would add that sadly this forum appears to reflect it. To make matters worse seem to have a selfish attitude where if you hand out any help you dont even get a thanks or the OP coming back to say how the problem was resolved I got a PM a couple of weeks ago asking for a alarm manual fine I sent it but not holding my breath waiting for a thank you.

To sum up there is no respect and your right getting a bit fed up with the chancers who wont buy decent kit to do a job yet when they are on a job sh!tting themselves they whip out a £500 I-Phone to get the answer or in other words why bark if you have a dog and yes no doubt you have heard this from me before but my feeling are is at times I am wasting my time so after Friday me thinks I need a break from this forum for a while.
 
Des 56 said:
Sorry to pee on your thread,but you have to blame the death rate caused by faulty electrical installations
It just isn't high enough for a sympathetic hearing

If it ever was to get a lot lot higher, then there would be possibility of action
Possible but not probable
Click to expand...
That is why the EICR is a waste of time people ringing you up can you do 4 a day or ones that are done without even looking , I did an inspection yesterday for a landlady the tenant told me 3 hours the last guy was only here for 5 minuets' !!! be honest its all about making money get in quick and get out
 
It's a sad state of affairs but I totally agree with you. It's the reason Part P has been watered down. The sooner ALL the associations combine the bigger the voice we will all have, I think.
Dave
 
Have seen a post about some one worrying about failing am2 because of a few things like not having time before the inspection to pin some sockets back and clip a cable. I know that if this was in a house and they where going to leave it like this then it would be an issue but if they fail the test because of the time of the inspection then this is not fair. and it shows that people who may be fully competent may fail tests because of a few minor things that may be to do with timing of tests ect where as possibly people who should not be doing the work can brag there way through.
 
chcnorris29 said:
Have seen a post about some one worrying about failing am2 because of a few things like not having time before the inspection to pin some sockets back and clip a cable. I know that if this was in a house and they where going to leave it like this then it would be an issue but if they fail the test because of the time of the inspection then this is not fair. and it shows that people who may be fully competent may fail tests because of a few minor things that may be to do with timing of tests ect where as possibly people who should not be doing the work can brag there way through.
Click to expand...
It all depends,these exams are timed so that a person up to the correct standard can complete it within the allotted time,sometimes people are slow because they either don,t fully understand what they are doing or they just don't have the level of skill. I once worked with a young lad who was painfully slow,he also kept checking and rechecking his work.I've known him remove a fused spur 3 times to check he'd wired it correctly,The same lad drove 30 miles back to a job once as he wasn't sure he'd connected something up correctly,despite having repeatedly checked it during the day.I know we all have our off days but when someone is that uncertain they should not be doing the job.
 
phil d said:
It all depends,these exams are timed so that a person up to the correct standard can complete it within the allotted time,sometimes people are slow because they either don,t fully understand what they are doing or they just don't have the level of skill. I once worked with a young lad who was painfully slow,he also kept checking and rechecking his work.I've known him remove a fused spur 3 times to check he'd wired it correctly,The same lad drove 30 miles back to a job once as he wasn't sure he'd connected something up correctly,despite having repeatedly checked it during the day.I know we all have our off days but when someone is that uncertain they should not be doing the job.
Click to expand...

That's true.
 
I try and stay clear of non-electrical talk but this sort of thread does seem to do the rounds quite a bit. Electrical Trainee are useless, what a sad state of affairs electrics is in... and so on.

I'm not sure what this kind of talk really achieves, I realise that people need to let off steam and have a good old moan but it doesn't change anything. If you feel that strongly about it then write to your MP demanding change. Tell all your electrician friends to do the same and maybe even start up some kind of web page or facebook petition! If you dont feel that strongly then I guess we'll have few more of these threads.

I am a Domestic Installer, I do a good job, I follow the regulations (99% of the time, perhaps 98!) and I dont charge peanuts.

I was fed up with my main job (nurse) and I made a change at age 40 and it feels great. If you are not happy with the electrical industry then make a change in your life, its risky and scary but probably worth it. Perhaps a plumber? :wink5:
 
Sorry pal but what a load of tosh. Either someone is an electrician or they aren't in my eyes. This so called domestic installer rubbish is sadly a front for some people with limited skills and with no apprenticeship behind them. Obviously there are many good electricians working as 'domestic installers' for personal reasons but sadly too many chancers involved who not only put themselves in danger but also the general public.
 
baldyspark said:
Sorry pal but what a load of tosh. Either someone is an electrician or they aren't in my eyes. This so called domestic installer rubbish is sadly a front for some people with limited skills and with no apprenticeship behind them. Obviously there are many good electricians working as 'domestic installers' for personal reasons but sadly too many chancers involved who not only put themselves in danger but also the general public.
Click to expand...

So what do you plan to do about it?
 
Maybes become a nurse:) then I can ask the chancers why they didnt train properly as im looking after them. Wonder if theres a short course for nursing? I could even be a nurse but all I do is change beds. A bed sheet installer.
 
baldyspark said:
Maybes become a nurse:) then I can ask the chancers why they didnt train properly as im looking after them. Wonder if theres a short course for nursing? I could even be a nurse but all I do is change beds. A bed sheet installer.
Click to expand...

I was tempted to 'like' that post Baldy as it sounds good natured, but I just haven't a clue what it means! :smiley2:

Yes.... there is a short course for nursing!
 
I think they could prevent most the problems by simply increasing the quals needed to join one of the schemes. Elecsa as a minimum you only need 17th edition, thats a 1 day course. I have not got a problem with part p, its elecsa, nic etc that are to blame as in my eyes they make it too easy for people to join them.
On the other hand a trained monkey could do most domestic tasks.
 
I employ a Electrical Trainee and he is **** hot he has been with me for almost 2 years and I have completely reprogrammed him. I don't agree with short courses but I vaguely remember not learning too much at college either and I did the long course.
 
Tell all your electrician friends to do the same and maybe even start up some kind of web page or facebook petition!



Or maybe an ELECTRICIANS FORUM????


Boydy
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Here is food for thought
icon7.png
You never know,us older ones may start forgetting a lot of what we were taught,aghh

Could we become the future 5wws,this time with reversed polarity,we could even be hawked out before we get to become 1 dayers
icon14.png
icon7.png
 
happyhippydad said:
I try and stay clear of non-electrical talk but this sort of thread does seem to do the rounds quite a bit. Electrical Trainee are useless, what a sad state of affairs electrics is in... and so on.

I'm not sure what this kind of talk really achieves, I realise that people need to let off steam and have a good old moan but it doesn't change anything. If you feel that strongly about it then write to your MP demanding change. Tell all your electrician friends to do the same and maybe even start up some kind of web page or facebook petition! If you dont feel that strongly then I guess we'll have few more of these threads.

I am a Domestic Installer, I do a good job, I follow the regulations (99% of the time, perhaps 98!) and I dont charge peanuts.

I was fed up with my main job (nurse) and I made a change at age 40 and it feels great. If you are not happy with the electrical industry then make a change in your life, its risky and scary but probably worth it. Perhaps a plumber? :wink5:
Click to expand...

Like maybe ELECTRICIANS FORUM ?????????????
Like this one would be if all the fakes/imposters/sham scam boys were banned.
Then we could talk to each other properly without being disturbed by some a hole wanting to know why his rcd is tripping or why sockets mcb blows when there is a wallpaper stripper working in the room, geezzz, talk about dumb down ffs.
But then of course Dan wouldnt get the advertising revenue because his web hits would be down.


Boydy
 
Des 56 said:
Sorry to pee on your thread,but you have to blame the death rate caused by faulty electrical installations
It just isn't high enough for a sympathetic hearing

If it ever was to get a lot lot higher, then there would be possibility of action
Possible but not probable
Click to expand...

Agree totally

Despite the best efforts of the incompetent, electrical installations are inherently safe enough that the numbers of fatalities etc is unlikely to increase - government and Nic etc will continue to endorse these 'quick qual courses' - the Electrical Trainee course providers are unfortunately not going out of business anytime soon.

:nonod:
 
Boydy said:
Like maybe ELECTRICIANS FORUM ?????????????
Like this one would be if all the fakes/imposters/sham scam boys were banned.
Then we could talk to each other properly without being disturbed by some a hole wanting to know why his rcd is tripping or why sockets mcb blows when there is a wallpaper stripper working in the room, geezzz, talk about dumb down ffs.
But then of course Dan wouldnt get the advertising revenue because his web hits would be down.


Boydy
Click to expand...

That's why we have started the DIY section of the forum and members can choose wether or not to post in it. Nobody is held at gunpoint to reply to anything they don't want to.
 
Sintra said:
In Northern Ireland there is no such thing as a Electrical Trainee wonder. Any person that wishes to become an electrician completes a proper 4 year apprenticeship. There is no easy way in through the door. Why can the same not apply to the rest of the uk? Obviously these short courses are backed by the government by way of this part p nonsense. Surely if an electrician had to be time served then this part p nonsense could be forgotten about.
Click to expand...


Rest my case.

Boydy
 
Captain Custard said:
Until the industry grows some balls and insists that government legistrates so that all electricians are licenced with a certified level of competence NOTHING will change!
If you agree +1 this post and when we get to 1,000 I'll forward it to my MP.
Click to expand...

Good luck mate, and i am on your side, but it will never happen. We already have a more than acceptable standard. Apprentice trained, appropriate other qualifications etc etc.

The "Short Courses" C&G 17th, inspect and test etc should be seen as supplementary to the apprenticeship or incorporated into it.

We cant overlook the sparks out there with no formal quals, there are plenty of sparks with grandfather rights, and we need to include these people. They have worked up though the ranks and seen a lot of change over a long period of time, and could probably write the apprenticeships and other courses even though they have never done any of them.

The 5 week wonders will always be there now, and they are not all bad, some will fit into the category above and now need some formal qual for whatever reason. So they maybe a electrical trainee in qualification but could have 30 or so years experience. The ones who don't, will take another 30 years to get there, you cant teach experience.

What makes life easier for electrical trainee is the fact that the people who push pens for a living have no concept of what an Electrical Apprenticeship involves or how long it takes. The only want to see the 17th edition qualification, and in their "Expert" opinion, this is the be all and end all qualification, and without it you are not an Electrician. If only they knew that the 17th edition is a course on how to find information from a book, and nothing more, then they could ask for an Argos Catalogue qualification and save us all the agro.

Cheers............Howard
 
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