Aggressive electrician demanding payment...what do we do?

[Pete999]

Bit of a bleak outlook on things, don’t have to sympathise with either side. but if either party has been wronged it should be sorted especially if they have evidence to defend there case.

I think in most cases the threat of going threw courts would scare most people into getting there act togeather.

I had done a customers lighting recently, landscaper redoing decking pathways etc to the sum of 26k and the workmanship was terrible bendy decking path falling to pieces refused to correct his work. All going threw courts at the moment. To say tuff would be abit too much of a kick In the teeth.

You been taking spelling lessons from Buzz? tuff, threw,togeather, there. Pedant is my forte.

 

[Octopus]

He probably doesn’t want to show you the materials cost as he has added a load on for himself.

or "acquired" them from another job FOC .....

 

[Risteard]

or "acquired" them from another job FOC .....

Is it just me who thinks the customer has no right to see my invoices, nor indeed any business seeing them?

 

[Nigel]

Is it just me who thinks the customer has no right to see my invoices, nor indeed any business seeing them?

It depends. We have contracts that can get audited. In these cases we must produce material invoices.

It would depend on the agreement settled on between the customer and contractor.

 

[Octopus]

Is it just me who thinks the customer has no right to see my invoices, nor indeed any business seeing them?

some people offer "open book" agreements ..............

In this case I think that the sparky isn't being straight with the client

wonder what timescales and payment schedules were discussed before he started?

 

[snowhead]

Is it just me who thinks the customer has no right to see my invoices, nor indeed any business seeing them?

I'd say in this case the customer does have a right to see the invoices for materials.
They say they were asked to pay £1400 up front, specifically for materials.

If they'd been asked to pay £1400 part payment towards the total job cost, that would be different, a breakdown of material cost which would inlcude his mark up would do.

If it goes to arbitration / court he'll need to provide them.
If they've been aquired, then they have a value which could be declared.

 

[simpson93]

Is it just me who thinks the customer has no right to see my invoices, nor indeed any business seeing them?

I do agree with you to a level, I add a small mark up on my invoices for time spent and any parts that may go faulty.

Recently I’ve had a client demand receipts for led downlights so that he would be able to use the warranty if needed, handed them as it seemed a fair enough reason.

 

[simpson93]

Is it just me who thinks the customer has no right to see my invoices, nor indeed any business seeing them?

I do agree with you to a level, I add a small mark up on my invoices for time spent and any parts that may go faulty.

Recently I’ve had a client demand receipts for led downlights so that he would be able to use the warranty if needed, handed them over as it seemed a fair enough reason.

 

[buzzlightyear]

demand receipts for led downlights so that he would be able to use the warranty if needed, handed them as it seemed a fair

if you bought them for a whole centre then the warrantee goes to you not the cliant.
I had put in cctv hard drive 12 months warrantee .customer rings up after 12 months it does not work
give me your whole centre address
so i can take it back and get a replacement . o yeah.

 

[simpson93]

Right but surely they will ask for proof of purchase?

Not had the problem previously where warranties had been registered over the internet.

 

[Midwest]

Right but surely they will ask for proof of purchase?

Not had the problem previously where warranties had been registered over the internet.

For down light etc extended warrantees, I provide them with the collection invoice from my wholesalers. If I forget to keep that invoice, I'll provide them with a wholesalers invoice on which I've redacted the prices.

 

[Mike Johnson]

It sounds to me that this sparks is moonlighting from his regular job, see if you can find out who the company is he works for, if you can let him know you have found out, if he is employed I doubt if he is VAT registered, as everyone has mentioned put everything in writing and confirm back to him what he says in writing, but don't pay him any more monies, seek advice from the Citizens AB, another thought has he ever said he is qualified?

 

[Pete999]

It sounds to me that this sparks is moonlighting from his regular job, see if you can find out who the company is he works for, if you can let him know you have found out, if he is employed I doubt if he is VAT registered, as everyone has mentioned put everything in writing and confirm back to him what he says in writing, but don't pay him any more monies, seek advice from the Citizens AB, another thought has he ever said he is qualified?

Or competent.

 

[hoitytoity]

Welcome to the Forum, sounds like a very unprofessional person, may we ask if there were any written contract or agreement be it even in email form or text to back up your position here.
Is there any written contract on your part that gives completion dates etc and what you expect out of the Electrician, also when he was asked to alter his work because he had failed to follow instructions can you confirm you had some detailed plans for him to follow.

If this was all done on the word of mouth then it makes it a lot more complicated on your part but if any of this was recorded, he had been supplied plans of the new layout and it clearly showed positions etc that he did not adhere to then you have a much stronger position.

I would from now on record all dialogue and is probably easiest to do via Email, if he has become aggressive then you probably have a legal angle to refuse him back on site but you also will be looking at legal options, I would first of all approach Citizens Advice or a on line legal advice forum to establish your position here.

 

[hoitytoity]

Hello!

We hired an electrician in August to complete some work for us in a little art studio. It included metal conduit, plugs changing to metal ones (plus more added), pendant lights fitted, strip lights updating (2), plus bits like electrical radiators (3) and a hand dryer installed.

The work was due to be completed for the 9th of September, in time for the space to be used the following week. We were asked to pay for materials up front as he didn't like the idea of buying them, so we transferred £1400 up front.

He then failed to show for two weeks, and gave us a few different excuses, then turned up in dribs and drabs (two hours here, then a full day on a random Sunday). We're now over a month behind schedule, paying rent on two places, and the work is still not completed. He never turns up. He never calls. We are constantly chasing him. Half of our unit is without lighting or power completely, including the toilet, which means the space as a whole is completely unusable. He has had to redo a few different bits where he has not followed our plan (pendants in the wrong places, power too close to the sink etc).

Anyway, he is now asking for payment before he completes. He's charging us for his mistakes and calling them our changes. He's threatening us with a bill for over £4000 +VAT when I've asked for his break down of work completed, plus a receipt for the materials we purchased. He's incredibly defensive, aggressive and unprofessional, but I have no idea where we go from here. The work is uncompleted, he is demanding payment, but we have no faith he will even return if we pay him for the work done. We have never undertaken work to this scale, and basically do not know where to go from here. Where do we stand? Do we have to pay him immediately, or is it ok to request that work is completed first? He is claiming over 80 hours work on site, but this is just absolutely not true.

Furthering this, in reality, we do not want him on site any more. He has been so aggressive in his correspondence that we would really rather just pay him for work already completed and move on from this mess. Is that viable? We have no idea what to do.

Any help would be massively appreciated!

how awful for you. First port of call is Consumer Direct they will guide you through the process of dealing with this cowboy. Secondly, report matter to trading standards as electrical installations will need certificates and person needs to be registered and work notifiable to Part B. Get an independent electrician to assess his work and make a report. Thirdly, it's great you had a deadline date and agreed schedule of work before hand, so after the advice given by CD, take him to a small claims court and recover the cost of your full losses as a consequence of not completing on time. Good luck - hope this bad egg is struck off

 

[hoitytoity]

how awful for you. First port of call is Consumer Direct they will guide you through the process of dealing with this cowboy. Secondly, report matter to trading standards as electrical installations will need certificates and person needs to be registered and work notifiable to Part B. Get an independent electrician to assess his work and make a report. Thirdly, it's great you had a deadline date and agreed schedule of work before hand, so after the advice given by CD, take him to a small claims court and recover the cost of your full losses as a consequence of not completing on time. Good luck - hope this bad egg is struck off

should say Part P

 

[123]

Given it's likely to be commercial premises, what has notification for Part P got to do with anything?

 

[wsoppitt]

Is it just me who thinks the customer has no right to see my invoices, nor indeed any business seeing them?

If you have nothing to hide, what is the issue with acknowledging the clients request for material costs. Surely client satisfaction is an important aspect of any job undertaken. Reputation is built on amongst other things, trust from your clients, without that, a good reputation won't be achieved.

 

[Frazer Gould]

Hello!

We hired an electrician in August to complete some work for us in a little art studio. It included metal conduit, plugs changing to metal ones (plus more added), pendant lights fitted, strip lights updating (2), plus bits like electrical radiators (3) and a hand dryer installed.

The work was due to be completed for the 9th of September, in time for the space to be used the following week. We were asked to pay for materials up front as he didn't like the idea of buying them, so we transferred £1400 up front.

He then failed to show for two weeks, and gave us a few different excuses, then turned up in dribs and drabs (two hours here, then a full day on a random Sunday). We're now over a month behind schedule, paying rent on two places, and the work is still not completed. He never turns up. He never calls. We are constantly chasing him. Half of our unit is without lighting or power completely, including the toilet, which means the space as a whole is completely unusable. He has had to redo a few different bits where he has not followed our plan (pendants in the wrong places, power too close to the sink etc).

Anyway, he is now asking for payment before he completes. He's charging us for his mistakes and calling them our changes. He's threatening us with a bill for over £4000 +VAT when I've asked for his break down of work completed, plus a receipt for the materials we purchased. He's incredibly defensive, aggressive and unprofessional, but I have no idea where we go from here. The work is uncompleted, he is demanding payment, but we have no faith he will even return if we pay him for the work done. We have never undertaken work to this scale, and basically do not know where to go from here. Where do we stand? Do we have to pay him immediately, or is it ok to request that work is completed first? He is claiming over 80 hours work on site, but this is just absolutely not true.

Furthering this, in reality, we do not want him on site any more. He has been so aggressive in his correspondence that we would really rather just pay him for work already completed and move on from this mess. Is that viable? We have no idea what to do.

Any help would be massively appreciated!

Hello!

We hired an electrician in August to complete some work for us in a little art studio. It included metal conduit, plugs changing to metal ones (plus more added), pendant lights fitted, strip lights updating (2), plus bits like electrical radiators (3) and a hand dryer installed.

The work was due to be completed for the 9th of September, in time for the space to be used the following week. We were asked to pay for materials up front as he didn't like the idea of buying them, so we transferred £1400 up front.

He then failed to show for two weeks, and gave us a few different excuses, then turned up in dribs and drabs (two hours here, then a full day on a random Sunday). We're now over a month behind schedule, paying rent on two places, and the work is still not completed. He never turns up. He never calls. We are constantly chasing him. Half of our unit is without lighting or power completely, including the toilet, which means the space as a whole is completely unusable. He has had to redo a few different bits where he has not followed our plan (pendants in the wrong places, power too close to the sink etc).

Anyway, he is now asking for payment before he completes. He's charging us for his mistakes and calling them our changes. He's threatening us with a bill for over £4000 +VAT when I've asked for his break down of work completed, plus a receipt for the materials we purchased. He's incredibly defensive, aggressive and unprofessional, but I have no idea where we go from here. The work is uncompleted, he is demanding payment, but we have no faith he will even return if we pay him for the work done. We have never undertaken work to this scale, and basically do not know where to go from here. Where do we stand? Do we have to pay him immediately, or is it ok to request that work is completed first? He is claiming over 80 hours work on site, but this is just absolutely not true.

Furthering this, in reality, we do not want him on site any more. He has been so aggressive in his correspondence that we would really rather just pay him for work already completed and move on from this mess. Is that viable? We have no idea what to do.

Any help would be massively appreciated!

First question - Is he registered? Check with his reg body if he says he is. My daughter hired an electrician to reqwire her house who claimed to be NAPIT registered. She didn't check and after his work was condemed as dangerous (and £5k later as she paid him) she found he was not registered. If he is really registered his reg body will have a process of mediation or assessment. If he isn't registered report him to anyone and everyone you can think of!

 

[KarPettit]

I would always be sceptical about a tradesman who needs payments upfront
Agree staged payments for phases of work that are paid when that work has been completed
Payments for large amounts of material should be made when said materials are delivered to site only

Seek legal advice and obtain report as to extent and safety of works already done from another company

Easiest option is to agree a figure for completion of works with your current electrician to be paid in stages as specific items are finished with a final payment once certification for the whole installation is received
Get this agreement on paper with reference to site plans and signed by both parties

Second option would be to engage another contractor to complete the works but you will probably have to write off the monies already paid
Keep all correspondence professional and in writing
This option will possibly end up in the small claims court
You will need times and dates recording and pictures of works currently completed

 

[delano]

PS - by the sounds of it you already paid a down payment to cover material costs, now lets consider his 80 hrs claim was correct then that would amount to him charging you £50 a hour which is extortionate and not at all competitive, also is he VAT registered and are you so you can claim it back, otherwise why use a VAT registered firm to do a few jobs when you could have hired a local sparks non registered who doesn't have to apply the 20% to his Labour costs.

£50 per hour is not extortionate!

 

[123]

£50 per hour is not extortionate!

@darkwood is local to the OP so would have a far better knowledge of the rates in the local area.

Every sole trader in the London areas must be VAT registered if charging £50 an hour or more.

 

[slingshot2000]

[USER=7939
Every sole trader in the London[I]

Where is this written and who enforces it ??????[/user]

 

[slingshot2000]

Every sole trader in the London areas must be VAT registered if charging £50 an hour or more.

 

[Octopus]

@darkwoodEvery sole trader in the London areas must be VAT registered if charging £50 an hour or more.

Not sure I agree with that ............. there are many people who choose not to work 5 days a week - some much less ...................

 

[Diddy]

Without wanting to come across as a rich hippy lol. I average three days, I don't need nor want the money that 5-7 days would provide. My work life balance suits me just fine. Think my dad mentioned to me about 40 years ago - Work to live don't live to work. If you can "afford" to do so, then I heartily recommend it.
I don't charge £50 per hour more like 40....but then again call out the 1st hour is 75....take it or leave it. I look at it thus - I could do between 20-30 hours at £40, or I could do 40 to 60 hours at £20 (obv I wouldn't do self-employed £20), but I'm sure you all get the gist.

 

[Darkwood]

If your changing 50 quid a hour (excluding initial call out charges) outside london then you are either aiming at a specific high end market position or just trying to rip of the customer IMHO (note this is an opinion), can you seriously tell me if you went to an old vulnerable lady and did a few hours to find and resolve a fault then you would hit her with a £100 charge just on Labour alone?
I would expect closer to half that figure in the Yorkshire area, it is competition that decides the average charge rate and unless you have sort after skills that most don't then to charge such rates will not be good in a business sense of attracting new custom and landing quotations, yes one can get away with it but that relies on either those customers that do not get other quotations and thus are ignorant to the going rate but this becomes a little bit questionable if one goes onto specifically targeting the vulnerable, like I said before, I have sort after skills in the industrial industry and have to turn a lot of work away such is the demand but even I know where my bread is buttered and know I would quickly loose my customer base if I tried charging them £50 an hour an normal rate.

I have seen it happen to others who got greedy where they made a good living for a few yrs then slowly work dried up, they probably believe the work is no longer out there as a whole but the fact is they had a poor business model and became a victim of their own success and greed.

I do expect some to disagree and I am fine with that but I like to provide a service that is good and rates that are realistic as this has ensured that my business model lasts and thus far I am in my 10th yrs of self employment with plenty on and lots in the pipework, I started out when the financial crash happened and it only the fact I had a good business model that I got through some tough early times.

 

[Diddy]

If your changing 50 quid a hour (excluding initial call out charges) outside london then you are either aiming at a specific high end market position or just trying to rip of the customer IMHO (note this is an opinion), can you seriously tell me if you went to an old vulnerable lady and did a few hours to find and resolve a fault then you would hit her with a £100 charge just on Labour alone?
I would expect closer to half that figure in the Yorkshire area, it is competition that decides the average charge rate and unless you have sort after skills that most don't then to charge such rates will not be good in a business sense of attracting new custom and landing quotations, yes one can get away with it but that relies on either those customers that do not get other quotations and thus are ignorant to the going rate but this becomes a little bit questionable if one goes onto specifically targeting the vulnerable, like I said before, I have sort after skills in the industrial industry and have to turn a lot of work away such is the demand but even I know where my bread is buttered and know I would quickly loose my customer base if I tried charging them £50 an hour an normal rate.

I have seen it happen to others who got greedy where they made a good living for a few yrs then slowly work dried up, they probably believe the work is no longer out there as a whole but the fact is they had a poor business model and became a victim of their own success and greed.

I do expect some to disagree and I am fine with that but I like to provide a service that is good and rates that are realistic as this has ensured that my business model lasts and thus far I am in my 10th yrs of self employment with plenty on and lots in the pipework, I started out when the financial crash happened and it only the fact I had a good business model that I got through some tough early times.

Horse for courses is the saying I think. I target customers who can afford me. If a genuinely poor old lady needed her lights/power back on either they can't and won't call me, or I will get to hear of it through friends etc. and I go round and do it for free. I have done this many times.....Maybe it's my little way of saying here ya go don't worry about it...have something back on me.
I am in east kent so london rates "almost" apply, ie half my customers work in london earn london money....in fact, yeah most of my customers are in the above average wage bracket...These people want a good service a neat job they want you to be presentable they want high end gear they want you to turn up when you say and they also require your knowledge and advice on equipment and accessories...I often find myself giving these types of customer numbers of similar minded "good" trades people who I can readily endorse as fitting the above criteria.
One last point it is a fact that those with grey hair have more disposable income than those who haven't reached that stage yet.

 

[Octopus]

As I have commented many times on pricing is that LOCATION MATTERS.

 

[Darkwood]

@Diddy
Fair enough, clearly you are in the London catchment zone so not who my posts were aimed at as I clearly stated.
Your outgoing comment about grey hair is not what I implied though, I termed the key word vulnerable, also having disposable cash does is not a reason one should take advantage, the elderly are one of the most targetted group in our industry by the low lifes that give us good tradespeople a bad name.

 

[Diddy]

Yes I agree about taking advantage. Like I said not my target market. I come recommended from friends who have had work done...neighbours of people who have had work done...Like I say I am more likely to be found doing stuff for free for truely vulnerable. My point about the grey hair was just a throwout comment really that a lot of people miss that being elderly doesn't automatically mean vulnerable nor skint. I'm sure we/most of us all have the same heart when it comes to helping others less fortunate than ourselves out if we can.
I'm not talking about it no more as I don't want to sound too much like a church-going saint either lol. Like i say happy customers who can more than afford me who don't want pimlico or whoever they are charging £140+ per hour... "Everybody's apppy" in my best Harry Enfield voice.
BTW day off today nothing in until Wed....wife works me harder for bloody free anyway !!

 

[Mike Johnson]

Second option would be to engage another contractor to complete the works but you will probably have to write off the monies already paid
Keep all correspondence professional and in writing
This option will possibly end up in the small claims court
You will need times and dates recording and pictures of works currently completed

Do not engage another contractor to complete the works, until you have given the original contractor in writing by registered receipt letter, or company e-mail, the opportunity to complete his contracted works in a reasonable time period, believe it or not if you don't do the above you will leave yourself open for a loss of profit claim from the original contractor, conversely if you carry out the above correctly he is liable to a claim from you for breaking the contract and liquidated and ascertained damages.

 

[Strima]

In his contract does he have a right to cancel clause?

 

[Octopus]

In his contract does he have a right to cancel clause?

Is there a "contract"?

 

[Mike Johnson]

I understood there is no signed contract, but by starting work he has agreed to whatever was stated at contract start, my above post is standard contract procedure and would hold true in court whether a written contract existed or not.