Extractor fan from shower isolator

[Pretty Mouth]

I came across this today when changing a shower isolator that was stuck in the on postition.

40A Hager RCBO feeding 10mm² twin + earth to a pull cord shower isolator. On the load side of the isolator there was 10mm² going off to the shower as you would expect, but also from the isolator was 2.5mm² T+E feeding a 3A fused spur in the loft, which then fed an extractor via 1.5mm² T+E.

So the extractor is switched on and off with the isolator, along with power to the shower. Not very good practice IMO, but is it compliant?

I believe so: the 2.5mm² and 1.5mm² T+E should be protected from overload by the 3A fuse. PFC was about 1100A, so the requirements of the adiabatic equation should be met. RCD protection means disconnection times are met.

What do you guys and girls think?

 

[James]

My biggest concern is that the fused spur is in the loft and may not be accessible.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

My biggest concern is that the fused spur is in the loft and may not be accessible.

I hadn't considered that. Actually one of the better lofts I've been in - loft ladder, boarded out, and with a light. But you think it would be a reg breaker had it been under 12" of itchy stuff?

 

[James]

Switches and protective devices should be accessible.
Partly for safety to turn off in emergency
Mainly for convenience though.

 

[Julie.]

Don't see an issue really, just a bit unusual, I have come across this before, my own house has underfloor heating in an en-suite shower that is fcu'd off the shower itself.

Got busy with my calculator when I found out, everything was ok disconnection times, adiabatics etc

There is the issue of circuits not being as independent as I would have liked, but other than that...

 

[Wilko]

If there is an external window in the bathroom then building regs are satisfied too, if I recall correctly.

 

[LastManOnline]

I hadn't considered that. Actually one of the better lofts I've been in - loft ladder, boarded out, and with a light. But you think it would be a reg breaker had it been under 12" of itchy stuff?

The insulation is, nt an issue as both the 2.5 and 1.5 will never be carrying more than the fan load. The 3 amp fuse is well below what the regs allow for cables of those sizes embedded in insulation. In practice however it would be better to connect the fan to the light. I personally like to wire the fan back to the switch and allow the customer the option of switching the fan separately

 

[westward10]

The insulation is, nt an issue as both the 2.5 and 1.5 will never be carrying more than the fan load. The 3 amp fuse is well below what the regs allow for cables of those sizes embedded in insulation. In practice however it would be better to connect the fan to the light. I personally like to wire the fan back to the switch and allow the customer the option of switching the fan separately

They will under fault conditions prior to the spur.

 

[LastManOnline]

They will under fault conditions prior to the spur.

Correct. But is, nt that a "risk" you already accept in practice in the UK?. For instance with your unfused spur outlet and the "3 Mt rule"?

 

[westward10]

Correct. But is, nt that a "risk" you already accept in practice in the UK?. For instance with your unfused spur outlet and the "3 Mt rule"?

No the cable must be able to withstand fault current.

 

[DPG]

The problem I see is that the extractor is being switched on and off, probably every day, by use of the shower isolator. The isolator should not be used like this.

 

[Vortigern]

Separation of circuits as required by BS7671. Put it on the light circuit? How does the three pole isolator work within that for maintenance?

 

[Flanders]

Sounds to me that the prisable is a good idea .The main time you need the fan on is when the shower is on . If there is a window in the room you would not need the light on to have a shower, so if the fan was controlled by the light switch it may not be used. Much better that the fan comes on when the shower is in use. I have seen similar sets up with cooker extract fans connected to the outgoing side of a cooker switch. So the fan comes on when the cooker is turned on.

 

[DPG]

Sounds to me that the prisable is a good idea .The main time you need the fan on is when the shower is on . If there is a window in the room you would not need the light on to have a shower, so if the fan was controlled by the light switch it may not be used. Much better that the fan comes on when the shower is in use. I have seen similar sets up with cooker extract fans connected to the outgoing side of a cooker switch. So the fan comes on when the cooker is turned on.

But the shower isolator shouldn't be used as a functional switch for the fan.

 

[James]

But the shower isolator shouldn't be used as a functional switch for the fan.

Why not?

 

[DPG]

Why not?

It will have a lot of wear and tear with daily use. And some fan isolators aren't the most reliable of things at the best of times. I would normally recommend people isolate the shower every time they have used it. Also the fan could do with leaving on for a few minutes after the shower has been used,

 

[LastManOnline]

It will have a lot of wear and tear with daily use. And some fan isolators aren't the most reliable of things at the best of times. I would normally recommend people isolate the shower every time they have used it. Also the fan could do with leaving on for a few minutes after the shower has been used,

Extractor fans have a duel function in most bathrooms. Moisture and odour removal. A switchwire to the light switch covers all these options
[automerge]1599648895[/automerge]

But the shower isolator shouldn't be used as a functional switch for the fan.

Correct. The shower switch is first and foremost a means of isolation for any service personnel working on the shower

 

[DPG]

Extractor fans have a duel function in most bathrooms. Moisture and odour removal. A switchwire to the light switch covers all these options

Indeed. Although it means you always have to switch the light on when you want the fan on. Even if it's daylight.

I still like the 'old fashioned ' fan with built in pull cord. If you want the light on then switch the light on, if you want the fan on then switch the fan on. I like a simple life!

 

[LastManOnline]

Indeed. Although it means you always have to switch the light on when you want the fan on. Even if it's daylight.

I still like the 'old fashioned ' fan with built in pull cord. If you want the light on then switch the light on, if you want the fan on then switch the fan on. I like a simple life!

Ageed.Thats always a good option. But that's why I wire the switchwire for the fan back to the light switch. If homeowner requires a separate switch for fan just install a 2 gang switch. Bang. Done. In reality here everyone has a mirror light as well as a centre light so it's nearly always possible to have a light on without having to switch on the fan anyway.

 

[DPG]

It will have a lot of wear and tear with daily use. And some fan isolators aren't the most reliable of things at the best of times. I would normally recommend people isolate the shower every time they have used it. Also the fan could do with leaving on for a few minutes after the shower has been used,

Just realised my post said 'would' instead of wouldnt! To clarify, I WOULDN'T recommend people operate the shower isolator after every shower.

 

[nicebutdim]

Just realised my post said 'would' instead of wouldnt! To clarify, I WOULDN'T recommend people operate the shower isolator after every shower.

I'm fastidious about isolating appliances that aren't in use (don't ask why), but surely shower isolators should be able to handle regular use provided they aren't being switched under load?

 

[DPG]

I'm fastidious about isolating appliances that aren't in use (don't ask why), but surely shower isolators should be able to handle regular use provided they aren't being switched under load?

They absolutely should yes. But I still would prefer to not use one multiple times every day of the year.

 

[Paulconlon]

I came across this today when changing a shower isolator that was stuck in the on postition.

40A Hager RCBO feeding 10mm² twin + earth to a pull cord shower isolator. On the load side of the isolator there was 10mm² going off to the shower as you would expect, but also from the isolator was 2.5mm² T+E feeding a 3A fused spur in the loft, which then fed an extractor via 1.5mm² T+E.

So the extractor is switched on and off with the isolator, along with power to the shower. Not very good practice IMO, but is it compliant?

I believe so: the 2.5mm² and 1.5mm² T+E should be protected from overload by the 3A fuse. PFC was about 1100A, so the requirements of the adiabatic equation should be met. RCD protection means disconnection times are met.

What do you guys and girls think?

I would personally never bounce on a feed from a switched supply but suppose you would always want the fan on when showering so not the end of the world.

 

[nicebutdim]

They absolutely should yes. But I still would prefer to not use one multiple times every day of the year.

I had one fail that was never switched under load. Always assumed it was poorly terminated, but suppose it could equally have been a poor quality switch.


Edit: Memory is warming up and I remember the fishy smell and badly burnt terminal which pointed toward poor termination.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Thanks for all your comments.

Just looking at table 537.4 of the BBB. BS 60669-1 are suitable for functional switching, but not for isolation? I must have got that wrong, what is the correct BS for pull cord shower isolators?

I guess if I were to suggest a non compliance, it might be 463.1.1

Functional switching shall be provided for each part of a circuit which may require to be controlled independently of other parts of the installation.
[automerge]1599682529[/automerge]
I'll suggest to them that I move the extractor over to the lighting circuit, perhaps with its own pull cord switch if that's what they're into. But not particularly worried if they say no, I'm happy that it's not dangerous.

 

[LastManOnline]

It will have a lot of wear and tear with daily use. And some fan isolators aren't the most reliable of things at the best of times. I would normally recommend people isolate the shower every time they have used it. Also the fan could do with leaving on for a few minutes after the shower has been used,

No the cable must be able to withstand fault current.

Why have, nt the previous posts disagreed with your assessment?

 

[DPG]

Why have, nt the previous posts disagreed with your assessment?

Yes, that's the one with typo in. Autocorrect at its worst!

 

[telectrix]

my preference is a timer fan with an independent switch, not controlled by the light switch. then customer can have light only, fan only, or both. ssimples.

 

[LastManOnline]

Yes, that's the one with typo in. Autocorrect at its worst!

Hi DPG. No issue with your assessment. It was westwords comment I was referring to. He raised a point about fault current that no one responded to