Old Houses and location of services.

[BillyTaylor]

Hi all, just had a look at a old style council house that needs some work. Had a spark and a plumber around as its getting re-wired plus he fitted a new 17th ed 14 way CU and is cracking on with the re-wire. The plumber was there at the same time and serviced the boiler and installed a magnaclean. Both the plumber and spark were happy with the works needed. However one thing I pointed out was the location of the gas boiler and 80 litre cylinder tank which were in an airing cupboard above the meter and consumer unit but separated by a ceiling. Now these have always been there and had no problems plus this house is not to big and there are no other locations for them. The gas pipe is in 28mm runs through the floor joists and goes over the CU but it is higher than 150mm I checked ;-) Plus to the left of the consumer unit ie above and running through floor joists again at around 200mm is the water in for tanks, hot water out from cylinder and hot and cold CH feeds, so in essence they are at the worst location ie above the tails. Then you got the cylinder and boiler above that ie services come in at the bottom of the stairs and the electrics and meter have been put in just under the ceiling and the gas and hot water tank just above. Both sparky and plumber said the same thing "old houses what can you do"

My beef is yes 17th edition board and re-wire great protection. But one leak or the tank goes or maintenance is needed on the plumbing above and you run the very real risk of water running onto the meter and or the CU tails and then its time to fry, as there is no tripping protection for that. So any ideas what you would normally do in this situation. The CU needs to go where the meter is located and regardless of where is goes in that area a sealed copper cylinder full of water is above it. Plus the plumbing is staying in that airing cupboard.

I suggested, putting the meter which is just on a bit of ply board into an IP65 enclosure and fitting a 100rcd off the tails in the enclosure before they run to the CU. Open to suggestions and what are the regs on this type of scenario - I'm guessing it probably goes along the lines of placement must be in a suitable environment

Any help or views greatly appreciated. Looking at some of the threads here, these issues to seem all to common in older houses. :cool3:

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Tricky one this, and i have been in a similar situation, where i had meter, cutout and CU in kitchen, which was directly below the bathroom, and all this stuff was directly under the bath. I am not sure how it sits with the regs, as usual it comes down to common sense. What i did was advised on the EIC at the time, that either the bathroom needs re jigging, or the supply etc needs relocating, nigh on impossible. He told me to mind my own business, paid my bill, and i departed, having done all that i could. I would hope that a flood of any significance would blow the cutout fuse, or the moisture would be enough to trip the RCD's, and all would be fine. But you can only do what you can do. Install to the regs, and let the homeowner do the rest.

Cheers.........Howard

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Hi all, just had a look at a old style council house that needs some work. Had a spark and a plumber around as its getting re-wired plus he fitted a new 17th ed 14 way CU and is cracking on with the re-wire. The plumber was there at the same time and serviced the boiler and installed a magnaclean. Both the plumber and spark were happy with the works needed. However one thing I pointed out was the location of the gas boiler and 80 litre cylinder tank which were in an airing cupboard above the meter and consumer unit but separated by a ceiling. Now these have always been there and had no problems plus this house is not to big and there are no other locations for them. The gas pipe is in 28mm runs through the floor joists and goes over the CU but it is higher than 150mm I checked ;-) Plus to the left of the consumer unit ie above and running through floor joists again at around 200mm is the water in for tanks, hot water out from cylinder and hot and cold CH feeds, so in essence they are at the worst location ie above the tails. Then you got the cylinder and boiler above that ie services come in at the bottom of the stairs and the electrics and meter have been put in just under the ceiling and the gas and hot water tank just above. Both sparky and plumber said the same thing "old houses what can you do"

My beef is yes 17th edition board and re-wire great protection. But one leak or the tank goes or maintenance is needed on the plumbing above and you run the very real risk of water running onto the meter and or the CU tails and then its time to fry, as there is no tripping protection for that. So any ideas what you would normally do in this situation. The CU needs to go where the meter is located and regardless of where is goes in that area a sealed copper cylinder full of water is above it. Plus the plumbing is staying in that airing cupboard.

I suggested, putting the meter which is just on a bit of ply board into an IP65 enclosure and fitting a 100rcd off the tails in the enclosure before they run to the CU. Open to suggestions and what are the regs on this type of scenario - I'm guessing it probably goes along the lines of placement must be in a suitable environment

Any help or views greatly appreciated. Looking at some of the threads here, these issues to seem all to common in older houses. :cool3:

what do you mean theres no `tripping protection` for the meter+tails?....what do you think the bullits for?...

 

[snowhead]

Millions of houses have been built this way over the last 100 years or more.
If it was a major problem we'd have heard about it by now.

If you look and think hard enough and in some cases stupidly enough you will always find a potential risk.

Personally I'd be more concerned over the future risks from being bombarded by radio waves from all the gadgets currently around, than from a hot water cylinder splitting.

 

[BillyTaylor]

Probably true snowhead, trouble is when you non stop get bombarded by regs it does begin to do your nut in. I guess it doesn't help with me doing project managing for large retail builds for the last 10yr, all you ever get is grief from clients, and the HSE ready to fine anyone and everyone - when I left this year I could see the difference to the lads and the work from when I first started, they put up with mad pressure, less money shedloads more grief and no common sense from all these reg and safety makers - don't get me wrong I agree with them but the attitude from them is dire. I just thought it was so ironic that we create this safe environment but evryone was happy to have pipe work and 80 litres of water above the meter but like you said lots of homes are like it.

bullits - what are those Glennspark? The way my novice brain sees it, is the meter tails are live and there is nothing but a 60 amp fuse, which the water could run over or run over the tails in the CU - what negates that risk of electrocution?

Anyhoots, looks like its all getting installed like that - I still think its nuts, gas run leaks then CU makes it go boom, water leaks and runs over the cu/meter and you get electrocuted - maintenance is even better, who-d want to be the plumber working above all that draining stuff down. To make matters worse I'm getting my head fried from wifi - I'm off for a can and a chill pill ;-) Thx all :smilielol5:

 

[Knobhead]

If they’ve had an electrician and plumber “around” what is you’re role in this? I just hope you’re not advising the householder.

 

[BillyTaylor]

Nope tony the plumber is mine and the sparky is mine, I had them round on a build. They completed the re-wire and plumbing for me as part of the renovation works for a client. Used the lads for a long time, they are mates and they are good as gold.

Seemed a tad harsh there Ton, why would you hope I'm not advising them can't I speak to the lads I employ lol? I do have the ability to listen as well as speak - when you combine the two it usually equals learning.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Nope tony the plumber is mine and the sparky is mine, I had them round on a build. They completed the re-wire and plumbing for me as part of the renovation works for a client. Used the lads for a long time, they are mates and they are good as gold.

Seemed a tad harsh there Ton, why would you hope I'm not advising them can't I speak to the lads I employ lol? I do have the ability to listen as well as speak - when you combine the two it usually equals learning.

well if you don`t know theres a service fuse protecting tails.....then you`v no business presenting yourself as someone who can `QS` on electricians.....probably plumbers n all (but i cant be too sure about them)...

 

[ayjay]

why would a council house need a 14 way cu?
in my day a 4 way was ok

 

[ian.settle1]

Nope tony the plumber is mine and the sparky is mine, I had them round on a build. They completed the re-wire and plumbing for me as part of the renovation works for a client. Used the lads for a long time, they are mates and they are good as gold.

Seemed a tad harsh there Ton, why would you hope I'm not advising them can't I speak to the lads I employ lol? I do have the ability to listen as well as speak - when you combine the two it usually equals learning.

So what are you a builder?

If so why don't you stick to doing what you know and leave the rest to the people who know what their trained and qualified to do.

 

[trev]

what do you mean theres no `tripping protection` for the meter+tails?....what do you think the bullits for?...

By Christ that was a quick two years Glenn. Welcome back mate, nice to see you

 

[bodgit & scarpe]

How far do you go, my roof might leak ?

 

[BillyTaylor]

Christ alive you guys need some of my chill pills, all I was, was querying it. As it happens I've started building buildings locally after working away for 15yrs. I know there is a fuse, and I know that sometimes they don't blow, I also know the water could run down in the meter and over the fuse. I was just mulling it over, especially as it will be my mates who will go back for any maintenance, plus for the people who live in the dwelling. So why the hostility? I have 2 city and guilds trades to advanced, one I completed with old school apprenticeship, I got my A awards, and verifiers, countless tickets, I got 2 degrees, I've been in construction since I was 15 - the one thing I learned in all that time is you can still always learn something - hence popping the question here but only to be insulted by people who (not all) act like primadonna's who themselves could not build a dwelling themselves. Thanks for the welcome, hope to meet you onsite one day ffs.

 

[ian.settle1]

Christ alive you guys need some of my chill pills, all I was, was querying it. As it happens I've started building buildings locally after working away for 15yrs. I know there is a fuse, and I know that sometimes they don't blow, I also know the water could run down in the meter and over the fuse. I was just mulling it over, especially as it will be my mates who will go back for any maintenance, plus for the people who live in the dwelling. So why the hostility? I have 2 city and guilds trades to advanced, one I completed with old school apprenticeship, I got my A awards, and verifiers, countless tickets, I got 2 degrees, I've been in construction since I was 15 - the one thing I learned in all that time is you can still always learn something - hence popping the question here but only to be insulted by people who (not all) act like primadonna's who themselves could not build a dwelling themselves. Thanks for the welcome, hope to meet you onsite one day ffs.

Well you have proved you don't know anything about plumbing or electrics so you can't:fuk2:

 

[bodgit & scarpe]

Jack of all trades, master of none

 

[BillyTaylor]

With a name like yours lol - Nope not only do I have a brilliant name in my area, and I am very good at my trade, I know a fair bit about yours, mind you lets be honest domestic electrics is hardly a trade, 3 weeks max to learn to wire to 17th. Plumbing is even easier. Civil and commercial yip true I got respect there, that is a trade as so often shown to me by the lads at Baileys and Premier, plus they don't act like cocks. Bodgit, come on one of my 25 million quid, that's right million projects mate and see if you could do what I do before you say I am a master of none. For my own trade I am a master and a damn good one and if you slagged me off like that to my face you'd be on your ---. Also Ian no I do not know everything about electrics, but I know a massive percentage more about your trade than you'll ever know about mine.

What I don't get is why you lot got your head up your --- over me asking a simple question just because I wanted to be thorough, safe and provide a good job. I spoke to the sparky who is also a good mate and he laughed and said mate unfortunately you get a lot of dicks on forums, they are usually rubbish when it comes to doing the actual work and won't make a squeak onsite. As he said bottom line, a new location would be best, true he would not want to be a plumber working above that lot hence why made all the cables rear entry and put some cover on the top, also taped up the pipes and told the plumber to put a drain cock on the bottom of the tank which is not often put on to enable the tank to drain fully if it ever needed it. Its all within regs, its just not an ideal situation and if it was him as its an outside wall, with power coming in overhead it should not be that much if they wanted the meter put outside. So nice to be able to talk to people - you numpties should try it sometimes. To those that did help and offer some advice many thanks and clearly the above is not aimed at fellow tradesmen like your good selves.

Shame on the rest of you, I don't think that behavior is one of a friendly forum looking to shoot the breeze, nor how you would welcome new people and get them to stay. Plus you just give real sparks a bad name, shame on you - seriously you need to get a life.

Well that's my last comment on this, for those that helped many thanks it was greatly appreciated.

 

[bodgit & scarpe]

Sounds like a Polish 'yes boss we can do anything' name :hanged:

 

[bartkusal]

Hi all, just had a look at a old style council house that needs some work. Had a spark and a plumber around as its getting re-wired plus he fitted a new 17th ed 14 way CU and is cracking on with the re-wire. The plumber was there at the same time and serviced the boiler and installed a magnaclean. Both the plumber and spark were happy with the works needed. However one thing I pointed out was the location of the gas boiler and 80 litre cylinder tank which were in an airing cupboard above the meter and consumer unit but separated by a ceiling. Now these have always been there and had no problems plus this house is not to big and there are no other locations for them. The gas pipe is in 28mm runs through the floor joists and goes over the CU but it is higher than 150mm I checked ;-) Plus to the left of the consumer unit ie above and running through floor joists again at around 200mm is the water in for tanks, hot water out from cylinder and hot and cold CH feeds, so in essence they are at the worst location ie above the tails. Then you got the cylinder and boiler above that ie services come in at the bottom of the stairs and the electrics and meter have been put in just under the ceiling and the gas and hot water tank just above. Both sparky and plumber said the same thing "old houses what can you do"

My beef is yes 17th edition board and re-wire great protection. But one leak or the tank goes or maintenance is needed on the plumbing above and you run the very real risk of water running onto the meter and or the CU tails and then its time to fry, as there is no tripping protection for that. So any ideas what you would normally do in this situation. The CU needs to go where the meter is located and regardless of where is goes in that area a sealed copper cylinder full of water is above it. Plus the plumbing is staying in that airing cupboard.

I suggested, putting the meter which is just on a bit of ply board into an IP65 enclosure and fitting a 100rcd off the tails in the enclosure before they run to the CU. Open to suggestions and what are the regs on this type of scenario - I'm guessing it probably goes along the lines of placement must be in a suitable environment

Any help or views greatly appreciated. Looking at some of the threads here, these issues to seem all to common in older houses. :cool3:

I think from the first 2 sentences, it is clear that OP is not an electrician, instead he is running the project, who did see the potential risks in the above scenario which is not always the case with us electricians, and it seems that he is really well qualified and inteligent man for his position.
Looks like some of you was really out of order. This actualy put me off a bit, people need to slow down a bit and or maybe read cearfully what the OP is saying...:sad3:

 

[brman]

I've got to say I agree with bartkusal on this one. No harm is checking where people are coming from but I think some of the comments here are a bit harsh to a builder who has just come here to check that what he (and his spark/plumber) is doing is going to be ok! Surely that is something we should be encouraging!
I can only assume some of you guys have had a bad day and don't have a dog to kick.................

to the OP: I think SirKits is the best response - it isn't ideal but needs must sometimes.

For what it is worth I am not aware of anything that stops a gas pipe (or boiler) being in the same space as the cutout, CU etc, just as long as the seperation of services bit is covered - ie. gas pipes 6" from meters, switches etc and 1" from cables. It would perhaps be best to ensure there is decent ventilation around the CU so if there is a gas leak is doesn't collect there.

So that just leaves you with the risk of a leak from above. This would be covered by the "equipment fit for the environment" bit in the regs and is a very grey area as it relies on judgement.
Again, I don't see it is an environment like a bathroom or kitchen or outdoors etc that are defined as higher risk in the regs but common sense does say it is a higher risk than elsewhere in the house. I'd approach this by asking what can practically be done to reduce the risk.
For example, how about building a waterproof "hood" over the electrics? That way any leak from above would be deflected away from the electrics. This could be done very easily with a bit of MDF and some DPM if it is in an area where cosmetics are not important. Not quite as good as your IP rated cabinet idea but easier to make it cover the cutout, meter etc.

I guess my short answer is yes, it would be worth trying to protect the equipment but I don't think you need to go over the top in doing so. lets face it, most meters nowadays are fitted outside in plastic cabinets which often have badly fitting, easy to vandalise doors..........

All just my opinion of course and I haven't seen your situation but hopefully of some help.

 

[Guest55]

i am surprised at the rough ride given to billy taylor over a reasonable enquiry.
As a builder you will be familiar with risk assessments , yes ?
in which case you need to judge the likelyhood of the mains getting waterlogged from plumbing on the floor above ( low ) against the measures and costs in removing that risk ( high ).
then come to the conclusion that the installation is ok as it is and do nothing unless theres a change to the risk.
regards.

 

[BillyTaylor]

Thanks Biff, Brman and Bartkusal. Really appreciate the help and I totally agree. Going to put a cover over the CU, its a tad awkward but doable it will probably splash proof and water tight to a degree but not waterproof. The lads did rib me most of the day pointing at the pipes above the CU and saying 'that's bugging you' and when I'd be cracking on with something else and forgotten about the issue, they'd be ' is it bugging you now'.

But we had our Friday beer and like the lads said its all above board but we got 4 other jobs lined up, this one is for a mate, and as I told them I can just imagine some plumber going there in a few years who may be a tad green and change something in such a tight space, have some water leak or some that's just left in a pipe and he ends up ding dong. So they said look sod it, Sunday we'll have a nose at the tank going in the loft, giving lots more room in the cupboard as it will only have the gas boiler and Y plan electrics and the electric meter is going in an IP65 enclosure, it needs boxing in anyway so may as well do that instead. The 28mm gas is directly above the CU but 200mm away from the CU and a small vent placed next to the CU. With that done and the cover on top of the CU, I feel like I can shut the door on the job knowing we could not do any more and we've done what is most practicable given the scenario we are in, even if it does cost me a few quid more, if it was my house I'd do it for myself. That said you are bang on Biff, very family with risk assessments, and you are right the risk is low and the cost of alteration is high the end result is that leave it as is. If the tank can be moved then bonus, but if it can't probably due to venting issues as its an open vented system then again all has been done.

Again thanks for the help, just wanted to pick some brains just in case someone had a magic bullet, you know what its like you chat to people and someone will often come up with a good idea or solution afterwards and you wish you done it at the time but take it with you for the next drama. It wasn't the only reason I joined as the sparky got me going on the 17th in a few weeks time as we all muck in with each others jobs and I've nosed around the forum and on the whole its a font of knowledge. I'm just happy to be home working after years of being away and lets face it work is tight at the moment and just want to maintain our reputation with people we know, local council, and other tradesmen - word of mouth and who you know have always done me well and just don't want to lose that.

Anyhoots, its Friday - happy days - bath, shave and back out for a few more beers, day off tomorrow and back at it Sunday Hope you guys have a good evening ;-)

 

[Adam]

How far do you go, my roof might leak ?

I agree with this.

I once had to remove a DB and place in an IP rated enclosure because of a cold water tank above (not directly, but close enough).

I personally thought it was a ridiculous idea as any water that leaked would be from a disaster, just like a roof blowing off. Perhaps we should only fit IP rated accessories everywhere where they may get wet?

Perhaps have surveys done to check likeliness of flooding before second fixing ground floor?

I'm sure the water tank is not designed to leak, and should be fine in room above. If a plumber causes a leak, any damage will be on his insurance.

 

[Adam]

I also agree that some posters have not approached the subject very well, and as usual defensive of our trade.

Why can't trades get along, and share information / knowledge nicely?

I hope some of you do not have the same attitude on multi trade sites, as I can guarantee that some of the others may make your work more difficult. Plumbers and plasterers will constantly make your work difficult if you can not work together.