PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to change

[oldtimer]

Well has anybody read the Issue 24 of the spring edition of the ESC Switch On (page9) Sorry I cannot attach it but the jist is there is to be an overhaul of the PAT testing regime. It has echoed what a lot of us have been saying ie the opening statement is we are still using the term PAT testing when it should be InService Inspection & Testing of Electrical Equipment. So it looks like we will be getting a a refresh and review in guidance to PAT and surprise surprise the Schemies are to be consulted over the next 2 months.

 

[Marnik]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

Well that's a surprise !!!
Is it not always been " In Service Inspection and Testing Of Electrical Equipment"
The term PAT- testing was only adapted by people who did not know any better !
How kind of the SCAM-Providers to put everybody in the picture (for a very big fee off course!)

 

[oldtimer]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

Well that's a surprise !!!
Is it not always been " In Service Inspection and Testing Of Electrical Equipment"
The term PAT- testing was only adapted by people who did not know any better !
How kind of the SCAM-Providers to put everybody in the picture (for a very big fee off course!)

Apparantly even the ones in the know are still using the term PAT testing ie when i was serving my time "Its a lamp son not a bl**dy bulb" so when I say a lamp the general public think I am talking about a standard lamp so i have to say bulb and PAT testing is the same.

But if you read my earlier posts about the lecturer at my II&TEE course he said watch this space big changes ahead ie PAT to be relaunched as II&TEE and fixed appliances on the agenda with only an electrician can check out if connected to a FCU

 

[pattest]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

Pat testing is just a misnoma that has been widely adopted.
However surely fixed appliances should be checked as part of the fixed installation.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

Well has anybody read the Issue 24 of the spring edition of the ESC Switch On (page9) Sorry I cannot attach it but the jist is there is to be an overhaul of the PAT testing regime. It has echoed what a lot of us have been saying ie the opening statement is we are still using the term PAT testing when it should be InService Inspection & Testing of Electrical Equipment. So it looks like we will be getting a a refresh and review in guidance to PAT and surprise surprise the Schemies are to be consulted over the next 2 months.

so does this mean that pat testers will now be refered to as "in service inspection and testing of electrical equipment engineers"?...lol

 

[Adam W]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

Pat testing is just a misnoma that has been widely adopted.
However surely fixed appliances should be checked as part of the fixed installation.

Why? They're still appliances.

 

[pattest]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

hi Adam, yes they are still appliances, but surely it just makes more sense to test them as part of the fixed installation , as they are as much a part of it as the light fittings.

 

[Adam W]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

What instantly springs to mind is hotels where all the appliances such as TVs and hairdriers are wired into FCUs so the guests can't steal them so easily. In any other situation they would be classed as a portable appliance should fall under the remit of 'PAT', so in my opinion should be tested as such, even if it involves isolating and disconnecting them to test, otherwise they wouldn't get tested at all - under an EICR I would probably switch off the FCU and test up to and from that.
Remember a PAT tester automatically links the line and neutral conductors together to prevent damage to the equipment when testing IR whereas a MFT doesn't.

 

[Adam W]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

To add to that a light fitting, whether it be a fancy fitting, pendant or just a battenholder would be unlikely to ever be terminated via a plugtop - you could easily test those safely by removing the lamps.

 

[UNG]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

Pat testing is just a misnoma that has been widely adopted.

PAT testing is a misnoma for a few things like selling a complete service and only doing half a job by leaving fixed appliances / equipment visual inspected or completely unchecked and untested

How can an industry that is offering a safety related service leave a client so in the dark as to what they do regarding what is tested and what is visually checked

But then again there is no actual law that says PAT testing is needed but some of the frightening and scare tactics used by the sales people would have you believe differently but then again it's only following up on what the HSE said and did when the EAWR was introduced

However surely fixed appliances should be checked as part of the fixed installation.

This seems to be buck passing to allow the whirling dervish PAT testing industry to be here one minute and gone the next and anything that takes too long to do is passed by, how many fixed appliances could be properly checked in a day I bet it's well less than 100.

hi Adam, yes they are still appliances, but surely it just makes more sense to test them as part of the fixed installation , as they are as much a part of it as the light fittings.

Light fittings are a functional part of a standard fixed installation and have a different testing schedule / cycle to that of "in service fixed equipment" and portable appliances

So testing of appliances with the fixed installation would necessitate more frequent testing of the fixed installation under your suggestion increasing the clients costs when what is actually required is increasing the competence level within the appliance testing industry this would also increase costs to the end user but would give the industry a bit more credibility

 

[oldtimer]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

Yep as the college lecturer said to me EICR covers the fixed wiring PAT as it was known appeared to say and cover portable equipment only and people were asking what about the Hob,oven,storage heater,wall mounted convector heater and even the humble all plastic kitchen/bathroom extract fan. Hence why they have changed the name and as I said in a previous post I could not find a PAT testing course on the college website because it was under II&TEE and I only found it because it said (formaly PAT) plus this was a 6 week night school course insted of a half day NICEIC/Select course that were £20-£30 dearer. So basically the lecturer was giving us a heads up as they are in on the big conversation and they way he put it was PAT needs to be relaunched as II&TEE hilighting the need to test fixed appliances and as for the sole trained PAT tester who is not an electrician there is no discussion they cannot sanction training these guys to upen FCUs or Cooker switches as he said you are either an electrician or you are not this is why they have been kicking the can so to speak down the road but we will wait to see what the outcome is me thinks the big PAT testing companies will have to hire an electrician where the small independants well thats their headache but look like I could be doing more of it as I do work for a couple of letting agents (although not PAT testing)

 

[72-van]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

I feel a storm coming on here if what you say is right oldtimer .
The cheap o days for firms paying a pound odds per item will be gone .
I believe that some non sparks will be competent to test fixed equipment .
where do the fast trackers stand with this then i wonder.

72-van

 

[oldtimer]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

I dont think they do stand as it were I was on the course last November and hindsight is a great thing but I do think the lecturer was planting seeds because he hinted that there was informal talks and yes relaunch PAT to II&TEE get a handle on fixed appliances plus as he put it a big headache with the PAT only guys not being competent and I said at the time but you can develope a course and the answer was a straight no because this where do you draw the line ie a FCU for and oven but a 3 phase switch for a commercial oven

 

[i=p/u]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

off topic slightly, for testing downlights there is a set of lightmates available, but the downlights dont take a cpc so what is the point of these...

 

[rich.250]

off topic slightly, for testing downlights there is a set of lightmates available, but the downlights dont take a cpc so what is the point of these...

I have some, there isn't really an advantage to them I can see. Apart from you need less hands lol.

 

[i=p/u]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

R1 + R2 and Zs is only test you need todo from these points and you cant get at cpc... some people are wired:hanged:

 

[i=p/u]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

sorry for disrupting thread/post

 

[72-van]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

I have tried those lightmates they make it so much easier than holding the probes s on and trying to press the test button.

 

[Adam W]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

I don't see any need to abolish "PAT testing" altogether because that would cost jobs - customers should have the choice between 'PAT testing' and II&TEE. Whether insurance companies (who are usually the ones calling for it to be done) decide they want all the appliances tested or just the 'portable' ones remains to be seen.

 

[oldtimer]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

I agree at the end of the day it isd the indurance industry that will dictate what happen just like they did with soke alarms. I think after reviewing the BGB this is the next logical step was PAT but looks like they have turned a stone and dont like whats underneath it

 

[Adam W]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

I think the only people who thought there should be a special testing procedure for things you can plug in are 'the whirling Dervish PAT testing industry' as UNG puts it - they are simply hiding behind a misnomer so as not to appear lazy and incompetent. I don't think anyone else ever intended for that to happen, least of all insurance companies.

Like that salesman guy was on about, you might be able to plug in 300 appliances a day and push a button, but anyone who's actually done it knows, isolating disconnecting testing and reconnecting class 1 equipment takes considerably longer and is not something a complete novice can do after a 1 day course, especially when they've got unrealistic targets to meet.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

I have some, there isn't really an advantage to them I can see. Apart from you need less hands lol.

i use em for R1 R2 and Zs....better than wresling with 2 prods and a croc that wont stay on the earth box whilst trying to press test...

 

[keano36]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

I am a Computer and network engineer and Pat test computers, because the companies I work for don't want these idiots who can't be bothered to test computers/servers and monitors properly anywhere near there equipment.
Like you said most are only any good at testing class 2 equipment where they can test 100s in a day, where's I am lucky to get 40 computers done in a day.

 

[jimmymac]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

I think we do need better structure on the 'PAT' side of things but, lets be honest, most company owners/managers are just interested in getting the paperwork to say it's been done so that they have covered themselves...and at the cheapest possible price

 

[Des 56]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

I think we do need better structure on the 'PAT' side of things but, lets be honest, most company owners/managers are just interested in getting the paperwork to say it's been done so that they have covered themselves...and at the cheapest possible price

Firms urged to pull the plug on £30m of wasted electrical safety tests

 

[oldtimer]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

Des this is basically the same article from the switched on magazine mentioned in the first post

 

[jimmymac]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

I've seen that before Des, that's sending out the wrong message if you ask me. Not once have i told a customer that they 'need' PAT testing, i say just say that it helps them to comply with the regulations........then i quote a few selected lines from the EAW 1989 regs....lol

 

[UNG]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

I've seen that before Des, that's sending out the wrong message if you ask me. Not once have i told a customer that they 'need' PAT testing, i say just say that it helps them to comply with the regulations........then i quote a few selected lines from the EAW 1989 regs....lol

Sending out the wrong message to who!!. Parts of the PAT industry have been doing it for years frightening customers into unneeded regular expense.

Words can twist anything it's all how the received info is processed "PAT testing is a way to comply with the regulations and the law" will be interpreted as "I need my appliances tested so I don't break the law". As with your post the "selected lines etc" followed by "lol" puts a whole different context on the whole post IMO

A mate of mine receives numerous calls trying to sell his companies various inspections and tests he usually refers them to the engineering manager (me) it's amazing what spiel some of them come out with and I think a lot would be taken in and authorise unnecessary work, I find it hard not to laugh when they start quoting C&G numbers to show how qualified their operatives are then you ask a question and the operatives don't have the necessary qualifications even though they have just quoted the C&G number.

I think once this HSE document is more widely publicised it'll be a kick up the proverbial for the PAT industry and maybe it will clean up it's act

 

[Engineer54]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

Historically, i think you'll find that the requirement of ''PAT'' testing of appliances, only covered portable appliances in it's inception, with the main essence or criteria being typically on hand held appliances. The testing of appliances has been evolving over the years, that now requires the majority of fixed equipment being tested along the same sort of lines as PAT testing.

Why a fully qualified electrician would ever need a C&G qualification to be able to undertake such testing is well and truly beyond me, (i can only guess this is to cover the 17 day/Electrical Trainee's ...lol!!) !! Classifying this C&G qualification as a level 3, even more so ...lol!!!

 

[oldtimer]

Re: PAT Testing ? it looks like they are sending out messages that things are to chan

As I have said before the ammount of disinformation going about is a scandel I agree why should an electrician get a C&G in II&TEE (PAT) until you realise that the industry is peeling or spliting things up why well they call it progress but basically it keeps them in a job and it means you have to get elctrically,I&T,II&TEE qualified and that means more money for them and as some say you have to play the game.

The reason why I went for my II&TEE C&G was I was getting phone calls from landlords and letting agents say do you do PAT testing and are you C&G qualified. I agree the 50p PAT testing companies have a lot to answer but the reason why I started this post was to expose the hole they have got themselves in ie I&T for fixed wiring and II&TEE (not PAT) for Portable and Fixed equipment and there lies the rub they could not put fixed equipment in with I&T so it had to go somewhere and as the college lecturer said this is a Big headache because they cannot authorise the guys who are PAT trained only to upen up a FCU.

Now instead of putting their hands up and saying well yes we forgot all about fixed equipment they say no lets change the name and goalposts and pay for an independant enquiry to tell us what we already know and who will tell us what we have already told them to "officialy" tell us that we need to change the set up ie big PAT testing companies will have to hire a electrician for fixed appliances plus to change the intervils between testing.

So say that they want all eqipment in an HMO tested every year fine but in a rented accomodation with say 1 or 2 people every 18 months to 2 years.

So what does this mean well they will tell landlords to get the fixed appliances tested along with the portable equipment and remember a lot of landlords ripped out their gas hobs and put in electric to save them having to pay for a gas safety check every year. The way I see it is that a 30% -50% of "PAT" testing companies will go to the wall and as guys like me get asked can you do my II&TEE and not PAT testing please. This is not going to happen overnight but then again they are not doing all of this to keep the Status Quo