Real Life Customer Enquirer

[Paul.M]

The below is a PM I received the other day from a DIY member. He is an RAF Engineer and builds, repairs and maintains fighter jets and the like. He posted up on here about 2 years ago now, a small fault in his daughters house and asked for help which he got absolutely slatted for on the open forum! Since then he asks me directly for help. Do not be concerned about him "changing light fittings, switches and sockets". If he can install a wiring loom to control the launch of a missile strapped under a plane, a few wires in a socket is childs play, not your typical normal DIYer trust me lol. Really nice bloke I may add.

So there is the background info so you know the history, here is the question:-

What are your thoughts on this real world situation from an actual customer? This is his PM:-

hi paul its **** from ********. i wonder if i could ask you a question which might lead to a job for you, my son has moved into a rented house in which he is very happy. its a nice enough house and i have done a fair bit of diy electrical work for him, light fittings, replacing sockets etc. one thing i do think needs addressing is his fuse box, it is an old push in wired.cartridge type fuse box. it has four fuses feeding 1. immersion heater. 2. sockets 3. lights. 4. electric shower. the meter box is outside the front door and the fuse box inside the front door which is the kitchen no more than 6 feet from the meter box. it is situated in a cupboard underneath his sink which i dont think is a very good location. i believe it would be better fitted in the cupboard immediately above his sink a distance from the current location of about five feet vertically up. i would think that the cables are likely to need extending. i think that what is required is a suitable consumer unit with mcb/rcd. what do you think? and can you give me an approximate cost for the job rgds ****

 

[Simonslimline]

I would say it's definitely not a bad idea upgrading the Board to a 17th Split load or high integrity. Nice to have the Additional RCD protection IMO.

In regards to where the board is currently fitted, i imagine its been there for years the way it is. So if it is easily accessible and not been subject to water etc then i can't see an issue with where it is. (Sure there are plenty like this out there)

It's hard to say without seeing the setup first hand to be honest. How disruptive would it be to relocate the board!

An on site assessment and good chat with the client is the way forward i would say.

Checking the earthing & bonding are up to spec also. This could require upgrading - (hopefully not)

 

[Pete999]

The below is a PM I received the other day from a DIY member. He is an RAF Engineer and builds, repairs and maintains fighter jets and the like. He posted up on here about 2 years ago now, a small fault in his daughters house and asked for help which he got absolutely slatted for on the open forum! Since then he asks me directly for help. Do not be concerned about him "changing light fittings, switches and sockets". If he can install a wiring loom to control the launch of a missile strapped under a plane, a few wires in a socket is childs play, not your typical normal DIYer trust me lol. Really nice bloke I may add.

So there is the background info so you know the history, here is the question:-

What are your thoughts on this real world situation from an actual customer? This is his PM:-

hi paul its **** from ********. i wonder if i could ask you a question which might lead to a job for you, my son has moved into a rented house in which he is very happy. its a nice enough house and i have done a fair bit of diy electrical work for him, light fittings, replacing sockets etc. one thing i do think needs addressing is his fuse box, it is an old push in wired.cartridge type fuse box. it has four fuses feeding 1. immersion heater. 2. sockets 3. lights. 4. electric shower. the meter box is outside the front door and the fuse box inside the front door which is the kitchen no more than 6 feet from the meter box. it is situated in a cupboard underneath his sink which i dont think is a very good location. i believe it would be better fitted in the cupboard immediately above his sink a distance from the current location of about five feet vertically up. i would think that the cables are likely to need extending. i think that what is required is a suitable consumer unit with mcb/rcd. what do you think? and can you give me an approximate cost for the job rgds ****

Well Paul not an ideal situation for this particular CU is under the sink, as it's a rented property could he not approach the landlord? I know people will say the landlord is probably quite happy as things are, as it's been there for a number of years, and it's quite safe as it is.

Maybe an EICR is the answer, this way it's pointed out to the landlord on official paperwork, it's difficult to giv a price, having not seen the property, it would be advantageous to know if the ground floor is a solid floor, as the cales more than likely run down the wall into the CU. If that is the case the job probably wouldn't require the cable to be extended, get the floor up above the CU and redirect them to the new position, only guesework I,m afraid, sorry can't offer any more advice.
Pete

 

[Paul.M]

This is going to be a good debate and informing you all on what needs to be done and why.

Keep your ideas coming gents, loads of points to pick at in that PM and the install.

I'll probably end up going around to this house within the week so I'll post up some pics.

 

[Paul.M]

@ Pete999, agree with you mate. Need to see it but just going on that PM a few things spring to mind. Let see if the Trainee's pick up on them.

You have already said it, landlord, get a permission to work first or if in the real world, who is paying, who is making good the plaster etc. Lets leave the rest up to the Trainees

 

[trev]

I think I remember this bloke Paul, definitely needs a site visit to assess the situation. I'll leave the rest up to the trainees.
As you say though, if he's got enough about him to wire fighter jets then he's got more than enough ability to mess about with domestic wiring. In his position I'd have been laughing at everyone trying to slate and then hit back with some technical stuff about jet wiring.

 

[Pete999]

@ Pete999, agree with you mate. Need to see it but just going on that PM a few things spring to mind. Let see if the Trainee's pick up on them.

You have already said it, landlord, get a permission to work first or if in the real world, who is paying, who is making good the plaster etc. Lets leave the rest up to the Trainees

Right on, rock on you trainees.

 

[Paul.M]

I think I remember this bloke Paul, definitely needs a site visit to assess the situation. I'll leave the rest up to the trainees.
As you say though, if he's got enough about him to wire fighter jets then he's got more than enough ability to mess about with domestic wiring. In his position I'd have been laughing at everyone trying to slate and then hit back with some technical stuff about jet wiring.

Trev he is a top bloke, you would love him (not in that kind of way of course lol). A very intelligent man, when doing work for him and his family He is always there asking questions, looking at the test results, comparing them with previous results after extending a RFC for example. We normally dont like customers on our shoulders all day long watching what we are doing. This is different, I'm teaching him about the physics/regs in a house whilst being exam-ed myself! It's fun.

 

[trev]

Yeah I don't mind people like him, it's the ones that just stand there and supervise that annoy the crap out of me. I normally end up with them labouring for me without them realising.

 

[Paul.M]

Right on, rock on you trainees.

Pete I would love to break down each point of his PM and post it up. What they have, what they require, regs on certain things etc etc.

I'll PM you what I've come up with, see what you think?

 

[trev]

Pete I would love to break down each point of his PM and post it up. What they have, what they require, regs on certain things etc etc.

I'll PM you what I've come up with, see what you think?

Do it mate. Throw the full thing at them and let's see what the lads come up with.
Off to do some work now. Laters

 

[Paul.M]

PMed it to you as well Trev. What do you think? Sure I've missed something out????

 

[Bobster]

It works don't it?

Guessing that's not the right answer

 

[flex_m]

I'm shooting in the dark with my lack of knowledge here, but although this work wouldn't count as a complete rewire, wouldn't it be bad practice to relocate the CU in an inaccessible location? Another under counter cupboard away from the sink would reduce the risk of water of water intrusion whilst those in wheelchairs would still have access.

There being an immersion heater and shower circuits begs the question how is the flat heated? If no boiler is present and heaters are connected to the "sockets" circuit it could become overloaded easily, previous tenants could have prefered blankets and spare cash over a toasty flat!

Apologies if I'm way off the mark!

 

[Pete999]

I'm shooting in the dark with my lack of knowledge here, but although this work wouldn't count as a complete rewire, wouldn't it be bad practice to relocate the CU in an inaccessible location? Another under counter cupboard away from the sink would reduce the risk of water of water intrusion whilst those in wheelchairs would still have access.

There being an immersion heater and shower circuits begs the question how is the flat heated? If no boiler is present and heaters are connected to the "sockets" circuit it could become overloaded easily, previous tenants could have prefered blankets and spare cash over a toasty flat!

Apologies if I'm way off the mark!

My last attempt got blocked, I will try again.
Good point about the heating, but the question is about changing the position of the CU. It would be far easier to move it up to a higher position out of the cupboard, that go to the trouble of moving it to another cramped place, not an ideal position either way but sometimes we have to live with a bit of inconvenience.

 

[happysteve]

Just wondering aloud... There are a few things to think about here but I will just pick one of them.

I wonder if, as the chap seems to think, the tails need extending, if they will end up being longer than 3m? I can't find a specific mention of this length in the OSG or BGB, apart from 434.3 (iv), and here it effectively says it's up to the distributor to decide. So assuming the 3m as a general guide for the length of tails that the distributor agrees will be protected by their cut-out fuse, you might need something like this:

... the ubiquitous MEM 800KMF switchfuse (or maybe summat with a slightly higher rating... immersion heater plus shower plus the usual stuff rings some alarm bells, but we'll leave that for now). And depending on the route of the cable (tails) between the cut-out and the board, you might want to think about the type of cable to use; SWA might be more appropriate.

I will leave some of the other potential issues for now, off to bed

 

[trev]

Steve you won't find any mention of that 3 metre rule in 7671 or the OSG. That's because the DNOs work to their own set of rules which are quite different from ours. In a nutshell, they don't want their cutout fuse protecting anything more than it absolutely has to so somehow, I have no idea how, they came up with some sort of compromise that it's allowed to protect up to 3m.
There's probably some logic to it somewhere but I have no idea where.

 

[pennychew]

What about mains smokes/heat detectors with it being a rental? I know it's not a requirement in older houses but if you change the cu do you need to bring those up to current standards as well?

 

[Bobster]

What about mains smokes/heat detectors with it being a rental? I know it's not a requirement in older houses but if you change the cu do you need to bring those up to current standards as well?

I'd have said no, only circuits you make changes to need bringing to current standards.

However I would be strongly recommending the client.

 

[pennychew]

But there's also an argument that says by changing the CU you are changing every circuit? I'm not great on the regs yet to be honest and there seems to be a lot that is open to interpretation! it will be interesting to see what all the opinions are?

 

[Pete999]

What about mains smokes/heat detectors with it being a rental? I know it's not a requirement in older houses but if you change the cu do you need to bring those up to current standards as well?

I think you need to ask the question as to why you are changing the CU? it's not because it's not to the 17th, its because it's in a dodgy position, but remember before you move the CU there is an important task to complete before you change it.

 

[Bobster]

But there's also an argument that says by changing the CU you are changing every circuit? I'm not great on the regs yet to be honest and there seems to be a lot that is open to interpretation! it will be interesting to see what all the opinions are?

Correct, but if there isn't already a smoke circuit. Have you changed that?

 

[trev]

Isn't the rule taken from Part P? "All new and refurbished properties will have mains powered smoke alarms......."
Changing a CU does not imo constitute a refurb.

 

[pennychew]

I think you need to ask the question as to why you are changing the CU? it's not because it's not to the 17th, its because it's in a dodgy position, but remember before you move the CU there is an important task to complete before you change it.

Get the kettle on before you knock the juice off? [emoji2]

Just kidding!

 

[pennychew]

Isn't the rule taken from Part P? "All new and refurbished properties will have mains powered smoke alarms......."
Changing a CU does not imo constitute a refurb.

To be honest I thought it was just for rentals but I've never read it anywhere, just remember hearing it

 

[Bobster]

To be honest I thought it was just for rentals but I've never read it anywhere, just remember hearing it

As I have never undertaken work in a domestic property, knowing rules like this is unnecessary for me. Sounds like it could be just on of those 'good practice rules'.

 

[pennychew]

I think you need to ask the question as to why you are changing the CU? it's not because it's not to the 17th, its because it's in a dodgy position, but remember before you move the CU there is an important task to complete before you change it.

To be honest other than the normal set of tests you would carry out to confirm all circuits will be compatible with the new CU and rcd I can't really think of anything out of the ordinary?

I would question if it really needs moving at all as like someone has already posted I wouldn't be paying to have a CU moved in a house I was renting anyway especially when it works fine as it is.

 

[Simonslimline]

Pretesting to highlight any issues is definitely a must. Not forgetting to test for borrowed neutrals as well.

 

[Pete999]

Pretesting to highlight any issues is definitely a must. Not forgetting to test for borrowed neutrals as well.

Nice one, good thinking matey

 

[trev]

There's a few more pre change tests to be carried out too. Well at least I do em.

 

[pennychew]

There's a few more pre change tests to be carried out too. Well at least I do em.

I can't do any tests at the minute anyway mate! [emoji6]

 

[Pete999]

I can't do any tests at the minute anyway mate! [emoji6]

Why is that?

 

[trev]

Why is that?

Because I've got his tester

 

[pennychew]

Had a chuckle to myself about that one!

 

[Pete999]

Because I've got his tester

Oh well thats boogered that then, not got one of your own then?

 

[trev]

Mine died last week had a few jobs I couldn't shift so put an appeal out which Stu answered. To my enormous gratitude.

 

[Pete999]

Mine died last week had a few jobs I couldn't shift so put an appeal out which Stu answered. To my enormous gratitude.

Nice to have such good mates isn't it?

 

[flex_m]

There's a few more pre change tests to be carried out too. Well at least I do em.

Global IR, good chance on an installation of this age the insulation of the cables has degraded to the point there is a high impedance fault between L/N and E. If you don't confirm the IR values are acceptable, the newly added RCD is may trip and you will have an understandably unhappy customer!

Also Ze to check the earth supplied to the property is acceptable?

 

[Pete999]

Global IR, good chance on an installation of this age the insulation of the cables has degraded to the point there is a high impedance fault between L/N and E. If you don't confirm the IR values are acceptable, the newly added RCD is may trip and you will have an understandably unhappy customer!

Also Ze to check the earth supplied to the property is acceptable?

And?? a bit more regarding earthing

 

[flex_m]

R1+R2 for all earthed points on all circuits, check bonding on all extraneous conductive parts (continuity not above 0.05Ω).

If lighting circuits are unearthed I would be tempted to ensure no fittings requiring an earth are present, although this is more in the scope of an ECIR.