star delta motor .....extra stop/start....415v abb

[chilliwilly]

chillywilly,
You seem to have a total misunderstanding of what is considered a control system.
The NEC does not apply in the UK.
BS7671 does not apply to machinery & control systems.
Most of the descriptions you give above are power systems under BS7671, not control systems.
Do you even know what the standard for control systems is?
There are still limited allowed applications for 400V a.c. control, though they are few & far between.
You should if you are doing this work be stating in what cases this is allowed.
I know & pull clients on it regularly.
From your attitude this is going to end up in a slanging match which I am not prepared to enter.
If you are doing this work then you must have access to the relevant standards & statute law documents, so the requirements should be there in your reference library for you to refer to, I know they are in mine.
I can take this as far as you wish, but, I'm not willing for it to turn nasty, and the tone of your posts is going that way so I'm going to end my input to this thread here, as I am unwilling for this debate to turn into an abusive rhetoric on your part, which from where I am sitting it seems to be going.
I bid you good night and hope that your clients don't get into any bother as you could find yourself in big trouble.

I'll give you one final example, a client of mine had an accident with an FLT in their yard.
Their insurance company sent in investigators.
These investigators, found discrepancies with machinery elsewhere in the premises.
This resulted in the company being in breach of the terms of their insurance.
Thus the insurance company cancelled their policy forthwith and refused the claim as they were not in compliance with the terms of the policy and this could be proven, and was.
So, the company was then prosecuted for trading without insurance and there were several other issues.
There is more to this than meets the eye, the insurance non-compliances were nothing to do with the FLT incident.

Good Night & good bye.

Goodbye.

 

[Knobhead]

An old saying comes to mind,
“There’s none so blind as he who will not see.”

At lease the lift maintenance guy seems to have sense in CW’s post. The lift system may be old but it can not be altered without the correct design procedure. This I would always put in the hands of the manufacturer. Up until the 80’s Ellison OCB’s would still be fitted to many industrial lifts as they would be tied in to the ultimate limit. Woe betide anyone that altered the control as there would be a major arse kicking party when the 6 month insurance inspection was done.

Lift manufacturers offer training courses which are well worthwhile. One that is worth doing is emergency rescue procedures. All the site electricians had to do this at one company I worked for. It came about when I got stuck in one of the lifts, I was the only person on site trained in lift rescue!

 

[Guest111]

it,s all about understanding the laws related to what you are working on,ignorance is no defence, and there is the old one of last man to work on it carries the can.As others have said insurance companies will look anywhere to get out of paying a claim these days,sometimes it,s better to walk away than have something hanging over you that will come back to haunt you years later.

 

[chilliwilly]

An old saying comes to mind,
“There’s none so blind as he who will not see.”

At lease the lift maintenance guy seems to have sense in CW’s post. The lift system may be old but it can not be altered without the correct design procedure. This I would always put in the hands of the manufacturer. Up until the 80’s Ellison OCB’s would still be fitted to many industrial lifts as they would be tied in to the ultimate limit. Woe betide anyone that altered the control as there would be a major arse kicking party when the 6 month insurance inspection was done.

Lift manufacturers offer training courses which are well worthwhile. One that is worth doing is emergency rescue procedures. All the site electricians had to do this at one company I worked for. It came about when I got stuck in one of the lifts, I was the only person on site trained in lift rescue!

If there's nothing to see then you might as well be blind, not so much as a blur but only a muffled sound.

The engineer was only in the lift car the other day changing a worn light switch on the car control panel that switches 240v! Naughty boy. Didn't even bither to test the em light, maybe the 240v aspect confused him into thinking there were a double standard?

I did the lift rescue course as well but I would still change like for like regarding buttons, contacts, switches, pendants and the like. Until there is concrete evidence that I'm causing potential danger and liable to prosecution in the event of a loss arising from my actions of connecting accessories and controls to 110, 240, and 400+v.

The niccy will be stood in the doc with me should any such occasion arise, and I will have to submit my niccy endorsed mw or eic as my defence.

The ellison unit wasn't a dashpot type isolator it was a starter for a 300 horse motor that I had rebuilt because my customer didn't have the money to have a panel built that switches restistor banks. Which I issued a mw cert to confirm it was safe to use.

How did you manage to rescue your self when you got stuck in the lift when you was the only person on site qualified and licenced to rescue people out of lifts? Let me gues you removed the car control panel a nd then decided you weren't going to touch anything becsuse the voltage was higher than than 24 v and you thought you was breaking the law. And decided to climb out of the top, but the realised that the containment system contained voltages higher than 24v and jumped back in thw car. And then shouted help or phond the brigade.

 

[Knobhead]

I didn’t get myself out! 5 f***in hours waiting for rescue.

Is this 300HP Ellison unit an OCB or DMO unit? Because if it is you will find yourself in the mire if anything goes wrong.
Have a look for the HSE directive on DMO switches. Makes interesting reading.

Enjoy you’re holiday.

 

[Darkwood]

I wouldn't rely on the Niceic as there are only viewing any works that come under the 17th and as you work outside of the scope of these regs they wont stand in any doc with you, ive taken them on a panel build in the past and he didn't know his rectum from his elbow ... his just checked the isolator to machine and supply was correct .....quietest ive seen him in ages they are usually full of questions.

 

[Darkwood]

I didn’t get myself out! 5 f***in hours waiting for rescue.

Is this 300HP Ellison unit an OCB or DMO unit? Because if it is you will find yourself in the mire if anything goes wrong.
Have a look for the HSE directive on DMO switches. Makes interesting reading.

Enjoy you’re holiday.

I think you were set up Tony ..... although I cant understand why? I mean your shy and reserved; its not like you to say what you think

 

[chilliwilly]

Hello my learnrf friend, hope you have had a good day? Where will I find that standard that you referred to in your other post?

The niccy inspector that used to inspect my work is ex industrial and beleive you me he knows his stuff, but no mention of any other standard relating to limitrd use of voltage ranges used only for control circuits. Then Tony Harrison took over from him, and he seemed to knpw his stuff as well.

I am in the process of re applying for membership with the niccy, and will be intersting if they snag 400v + control voltage?

 

[chilliwilly]

I didn’t get myself out! 5 f***in hours waiting for rescue.

Is this 300HP Ellison unit an OCB or DMO unit? Because if it is you will find yourself in the mire if anything goes wrong.
Have a look for the HSE directive on DMO switches. Makes interesting reading.

Enjoy you’re holiday.

I don't know as the decal/badge was missing, but its still painted orange and in very good condition if that helps?

If I get away anytime, I will send you a post card with wish you was here and all that, but you will have let me know whete to send it?

Thanks for coming.

 

[Darkwood]

Hello my learnrf friend, hope you have had a good day? Where will I find that standard that you referred to in your other post?

The niccy inspector that used to inspect my work is ex industrial and beleive you me he knows his stuff, but no mention of any other standard relating to limitrd use of voltage ranges used only for control circuits. Then Tony Harrison took over from him, and he seemed to knpw his stuff as well.

I am in the process of re applying for membership with the niccy, and will be intersting if they snag 400v + control voltage?

Have a browse at this Rockwell have simplified it and generalised it but I cant give a definite directive as its covered by category and risk assessment as to the nature of the control voltages etc also a lot of machinery may come under its own specialised EN codes of practice.http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/rm/shb900-rm001_-en-p.pdf It also gives relevant EN - code references throughout the PDF that may apply to work you encounter. The list is endless and im not at home to pull out any particular code but hope it highlights what you need to do when repairing or upgrading machinery....

 

[KAS1]

I used to hate to see / work on 415v control circuits especially remote stop/start stations, feel much happier with 24v or 110v control circuits much safer IMO, seen people fault finding on live remote stop/starts with a multi meter and reading 220v to earth on most of the terminals and getting really confused not even thinking that 400/415volts were present lol

 

[Darkwood]

I used to hate to see / work on 415v control circuits especially remote stop/start stations, feel much happier with 24v or 110v control circuits much safer IMO, seen people fault finding on live remote stop/starts with a multi meter and reading 220v to earth on most of the terminals and getting really confused not even thinking that 400/415volts were present lol

Its no easier at 24dc if negative hasn't been grounded... can get allsorts of confusing conflicting readings if your new to it.

 

[silva.foxx]

Learned ex-ridgetile rider

Here's one reg for you EN 60204-1:2006+A1:2008 Electrical equipment of Industrial machines.

"9.1.2 Control circuit voltages
The nominal value of the control voltage shall be consistent with the correct operation of the control circuit. The nominal voltage shall not exceed 277 V when supplied from a transformer."

EN 60204 also specifies that all but very simple control circuits should be supplied from a transformer or isolated DC PSU.

Line - neutral 230V or line - line 400V control voltage can be used where there is only one contactor with no control functions outside its immediate enclosure. (E.g. a simple individual enclosed starter... no external stop/start pushbutton stations)

http://infoplc.net/files/documentacion/seguridad_normativa/infoplc_net_200941458485281.pdf

Whether it is relevant to churches or car hoists is not my concern, but as Darkwood and NBP have guided you toward... repairing a control system by replacing a component like for like on whatever voltage you like is fine as long as it is to original spec... but modifying a control system means you need to fall in line with the relevant standards.

It's also a bit pathetic to say that everything at or above 400vac is law breaking... you may want to re-read your opening rants and tone down your input as it reads un-necessarily aggressive. Be polite, positive and professional to keep it a good place for healthy debate and fun.

.

 

[Knobhead]

Any ungrounded system will cause confusion. Especially when you get an earth fault on the supposed live line.

 

[Darkwood]

Cheers for the pdf Silva..... I had earlier referenced where to find the relevant machine safety standards but wasn't in a position to look up the specific blurb as im working away, you saved me a job when I return home

 

[Engineer54]

Cheers for the pdf Silva..... I had earlier referenced where to find the relevant machine safety standards but wasn't in a position to look up the specific blurb as im working away, you saved me a job when I return home

I am getting the impression you'll still be just bashing your head up against a brick wall here mate!! ...lol!!

 

[chilliwilly]

Learned ex-ridgetile rider

Here's one reg for you EN 60204-1:2006+A1:2008 Electrical equipment of Industrial machines.

"9.1.2 Control circuit voltages
The nominal value of the control voltage shall be consistent with the correct operation of the control circuit. The nominal voltage shall not exceed 277 V when supplied from a transformer."

EN 60204 also specifies that all but very simple control circuits should be supplied from a transformer or isolated DC PSU.

Line - neutral 230V or line - line 400V control voltage can be used where there is only one contactor with no control functions outside its immediate enclosure. (E.g. a simple individual enclosed starter... no external stop/start pushbutton stations)

http://infoplc.net/files/documentacion/seguridad_normativa/infoplc_net_200941458485281.pdf

Whether it is relevant to churches or car hoists is not my concern, but as Darkwood and NBP have guided you toward... repairing a control system by replacing a component like for like on whatever voltage you like is fine as long as it is to original spec... but modifying a control system means you need to fall in line with the relevant standards.

It's also a bit pathetic to say that everything at or above 400vac is law breaking... you may want to re-read your opening rants and tone down your input as it reads un-necessarily aggressive. Be polite, positive and professional to keep it a good place for healthy debate and fun.

.

Thank you for the link, I will read and consider what it states, I am not intending to be aggressive, I am replying to the same egregious tones as the other abrupt posters.

There's only you an darkwood that have shown that you are gents by offering advice and support, and not like the cocky know it all, "that's a fact because I say so because I'm self proffessed" attidudes from some of them on here.

At the end of the day if someone stands on my toes, I will stand on theirs.

In the meantime thank you again for the link.

 

[Knobhead]

Read and consider would indicate you don’t intend to take on board what you have been told. That decision is yours.
Now think on you’re opinions and actions if things go wrong.
You’re attitude to safety is now a matter of record due to this site. You no longer have the recourse of ignorance of the law as a defence.

Sleep well dear child. The demons of the night are yet to wake and haunt you’re dreams. Sleep well.

 

[chilliwilly]

Read and consider would indicate you don’t intend to take on board what you have been told. That decision is yours.
Now think on you’re opinions and actions if things go wrong.[/SI
You’re attitude to safety is now a matter of record due to this site. You no longer have the recourse of ignorance of the law as a defence.



Sleep well dear child. The demons of the night are yet to wake and haunt you’re dreams. Sleep well.

See what I mean?

 

[KAS1]

Not so dangerous though lol

Its no easier at 24dc if negative hasn't been grounded... can get allsorts of confusing conflicting readings if your new to it.