What and arxse hole...

[Octopus]

Were your T&C's in with the quotation he received?

no! But I suspect he has now read them.....

 

[Midwest]

Ohh, apologies attributed post made by someone else to you.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Staged payments are mentioned, as are materials remain the property of .......

A retention of title clause (also called a Romalpa clause in some jurisdictions) is a provision in a contract for the sale of goods that the title to the goods remains vested in the seller until certain obligations (usually payment of the purchase price) are fulfilled by the buyer.

(Thanks Wikki)

 

[Geordie Spark]

Lotsa Templates for T & Cs here >>>>>>>>>> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=t...-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=KTGYVpnaGIf7apyskcgH

 

[plugsandsparks]

I have been burned by trades in the past and as a customer I can see exactly what he is saying and why. I almost always, like 99%, invoice on completion.

My suggestion fwiw is to advise the client to have around X in cash ready on y date and when completed hand over the cert at the same time as having the cash in your hand. Like buying a car......... Obviolusly cert does not get handed over unless cash is coming the other way.

Next time - make your mind up... stage or invoice on completion,

 

[Midwest]

This might be controversial; I recall reading somewhere.....you cannot withhold your EIC/MW certificate until you receive payment. To comply with BS7671, installations require a form of certification, and forms part of the installation. So if you go into litigation, it could be construed you have not completed your contract with your customer.

Course that would have to be argued in court. In the meantime, you could say your get it when you pay.

 

[tomspark93]

But part p certification is ultimately down to the customer and you could therefore not notify the job until paid.

 

[Octopus]

This might be controversial; I recall reading somewhere.....you cannot withhold your EIC/MW certificate until you receive payment. To comply with BS7671, installations require a form of certification, and forms part of the installation. So if you go into litigation, it could be construed you have not completed your contract with your customer.

Course that would have to be argued in court. In the meantime, you could say your get it when you pay.

I think thats a line peddled by the NICEIC.

Presentation of the certificate is what is agreed between the customer and installer IMHO.

I don't think he knows the difference between the cert and Part P - so I can submit the cert and not do the notification until he pays

 

[Midwest]

I think thats a line peddled by the NICEIC.

Presentation of the certificate is what is agreed between the customer and installer IMHO.

I don't think he knows the difference between the cert and Part P - so I can submit the cert and not do the notification until he pays

Not sure about NIC, but reg 631 is pretty clear. Seem to remember my scheme say the notification can be submitted within 30 days, enough time for the cheque to clear!

 

[Octopus]

Not sure about NIC, but reg 631 is pretty clear. Seem to remember my scheme say the notification can be submitted within 30 days, enough time for the cheque to clear!

Hum... not got my BYB to hand, but I think that if the cert has to be provided, that gives the upper hand to twxts to take the pxss!

 

[Andy78]

Hum... not got my BYB to hand, but I think that if the cert has to be provided, that gives the upper hand to twxts to take the pxss!

Just doing a quote this morning so sat at the desk, here you go.

631.1 Upon completion of the verification of a new installation or changes to an existing installation, an EIC based on the model given in appx 6 shall be provided ... blah blah accompanied by SOTR and SOI etc


Personally I would hand over the cert as requested and play the guy at his own game. You have it in an email that he will pay on completion so don't give him any reason to claim the job is not complete. As you say, you can always hold off on notification.

 

[Octopus]

Just doing a quote this morning so sat at the desk, here you go.

631.1 Upon completion of the verification of a new installation or changes to an existing installation, an EIC based on the model given in appx 6 shall be provided ... blah blah accompanied by SOTR and SOI etc


Personally I would hand over the cert as requested and play the guy at his own game. You have it in an email that he will pay on completion so don't give him any reason to claim the job is not complete. As you say, you can always hold off on notification.

thanks. So does that mean we can with hold mwc's

 

[Andy78]

thanks. So does that mean we can with hold mwc's

Ha ! Yeah it's worded pretty badly (who'd a thunk it ?) definitely says an EIC though...

631.3 says a MEIWC can be used as an alternative to an EIC where work does not not extend to new circuits

 

[Spoon]

As Andy has said, "You have it in an email that he will pay on completion so don't give him any reason to claim the job is not complete."
When you have done the job and the only thing you have to do is give him the cert, get him to confirm by email everything is complete, except for receiving the cert, before you give him the cert. That way when you give it to him he then can't state that its not been completed properly.

 

[Octopus]

UPDATE:

I took on board all the comments about the situation and sent this email:

"Hi xxxxxx

I was more than a little surprised to read your “aggressive” response to my email.

When I was last at the flat before Christmas, the time scales seemed more than a little vague and from previous experience I did not want to get caught out with a “final” invoice on a job where my completion could be held up by other people and outside my control.

I have no problem completing the tasks in the week commencing the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Feb – in fact that suits my current commitments nicely. When I complete a job, I always provide the certificate with the invoice and I look forward to receiving payment “in exchange” .

I appreciate your planning and keeping the trades “apart” but I do fear that fixing down the floor boards at this stage may be premature as I’ve not looked at the cabling for the kitchen sockets in any way. In the kitchen there is the “above counter” fused spur to add for the outside light and also the cable to be run for the under cupboard lights from the right of the hob to the left of the hob – it may be easier to do this by running the cable back into the loft and back down again. If my memory serves me correct there is also the question of the addition of the socket in the lounge to be done to

Best we have a site meeting ASAP – how would 10am on Monday fit with you?"

and his response was:

"Mon @ 10am is fine."


Will keep you posted!

 

[Midwest]

Just don't pin him up against the wall and shout 'Show me the money!'

 

[Octopus]

Just don't pin him up against the wall and shout 'Show me the money!'

Not going to do that - he's bigger than me!

BUT some nails under the tyres of his range rover might be useful

 

[ruston]

Just don't pin him up against the wall and shout 'Show me the money!'

You mean with his team?

 

[Midwest]

Arrgh, see where he gets the name of Murdoch now!

 

[Octopus]

Arrgh, see where he gets the name of Murdoch now!

Hum no.

Murdoch was the name of the cat we had when I joined the forum. Murdoch (the cat) was named by my kids after a Thomas the tank engine character!

 

[Midwest]

Hum no.

Murdoch was the name of the cat we had when I joined the forum. Murdoch (the cat) was named by my kids after a Thomas the tank engine character!

You've just gone and ruined it now.

 

[ruston]

You've just gone and ruined it now.

And the van was mint too.:smiley2:

 

[NDG Elecs]

UPDATE:

I took on board all the comments about the situation and sent this email:

"Hi xxxxxx

I was more than a little surprised to read your “aggressive” response to my email.

When I was last at the flat before Christmas, the time scales seemed more than a little vague and from previous experience I did not want to get caught out with a “final” invoice on a job where my completion could be held up by other people and outside my control.

I have no problem completing the tasks in the week commencing the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Feb – in fact that suits my current commitments nicely. When I complete a job, I always provide the certificate with the invoice and I look forward to receiving payment “in exchange” .

I appreciate your planning and keeping the trades “apart” but I do fear that fixing down the floor boards at this stage may be premature as I’ve not looked at the cabling for the kitchen sockets in any way. In the kitchen there is the “above counter” fused spur to add for the outside light and also the cable to be run for the under cupboard lights from the right of the hob to the left of the hob – it may be easier to do this by running the cable back into the loft and back down again. If my memory serves me correct there is also the question of the addition of the socket in the lounge to be done to

Best we have a site meeting ASAP – how would 10am on Monday fit with you?"

and his response was:

"Mon @ 10am is fine."


Will keep you posted!

A nicely measured response there Murdoch. Succinct, professional and to the point.

Midwest, I am fairly certain that through the online BC notification on NAPITs website you have to do it within 21 days. That might be NAPIT only though. I would expect the definite time scales to be contained within Part P.

 

[ImpededLoop]

It's possible to have the Part P certificate delivered to an alternative address, so you could have it delivered to yourself and hand it over after receiving payment.

 

[Midwest]

A nicely measured response there Murdoch. Succinct, professional and to the point.

Midwest, I am fairly certain that through the online BC notification on NAPITs website you have to do it within 21 days. That might be NAPIT only though. I would expect the definite time scales to be contained within Part P.

Think your right, but honest mistakes happen!

 

[Midwest]

Or gets lost in the post, the notification not the cheque!

 

[Richard Burns]

The building regulations require that a building regulations compliance certificate is received by the customer within 30 days of completion of the work, therefore schema tend to have a slightly shorter timescale for your notification to them so they have the time to send the paperwork to the customer.

Good luck with the progress of the operation Murdoch, I hope it goes well.
Do note that the customer is very particular about statements and is indicating the contracted work, therefore anything outside of your quote is not relevant to cony sort of completion of the contract and therefore does not affect payment for the completed contract (once it is complete).

 

[Octopus]

The building regulations require that a building regulations compliance certificate is received by the customer within 30 days of completion of the work, therefore schema tend to have a slightly shorter timescale for your notification to them so they have the time to send the paperwork to the customer.

Good luck with the progress of the operation Murdoch, I hope it goes well.
Do note that the customer is very particular about statements and is indicating the contracted work, therefore anything outside of your quote is not relevant to cony sort of completion of the contract and therefore does not affect payment for the completed contract (once it is complete).

What contract?

There is the agreement of 1 socket to be added - and this hasn't been priced as yet....

 

[Richard Burns]

You submitting a quote and him accepting it is the arrangement of a contract between you.
Therefore any work additional to your original quote is not subject to this contract and would be subject to either a contract amendment (which would then require completion before any payment) or a new contract for the additional work which could then be arranged separately with separate payment requirements however agreement will already be in place to pay for the original completed work.

In effect I am saying do not do any extra work beyond what you originally priced without making it clear that this additional work is a separate job and can be paid separately and does not affect the final payment due when the first part of the work is complete.


.

 

[NDG Elecs]

The building regulations require that a building regulations compliance certificate is received by the customer within 30 days of completion of the work, therefore schema tend to have a slightly shorter timescale for your notification to them so they have the time to send the paperwork to the customer.

Good luck with the progress of the operation Murdoch, I hope it goes well.
Do note that the customer is very particular about statements and is indicating the contracted work, therefore anything outside of your quote is not relevant to cony sort of completion of the contract and therefore does not affect payment for the completed contract (once it is complete).

I might remind NAPIT about this as it generally takes a minimum of three weeks before I get the cert through my door. If NAPIT are doing 21 days that gives them 9 days to get the cert to me technically. Fat chance of that happening!

 

[D Skelton]

As snotty as this customer sounds, from what you've described he's in the right, as annoying as that may be.

As for the T's & C's, it's no good pointing people in their general direction. Unless you have their signature on a paper copy of those T's & C's, they haven't agreed to diddly squat.

For future work, it might be best to state at the outset that you want staged payments, and to include it in your T's & C's which you should be requesting that in order to carry out the work, you would need the customer to read, sign and return (self addressed envelope of course) prior to engagement.

We do this for all work over £1000.

It's a$$ covering mate, that's all

 

[Octopus]

As snotty as this customer sounds, from what you've described he's in the right, as annoying as that may be.

As for the T's & C's, it's no good pointing people in their general direction. Unless you have their signature on a paper copy of those T's & C's, they haven't agreed to diddly squat.

For future work, it might be best to state at the outset that you want staged payments, and to include it in your T's & C's which you should be requesting that in order to carry out the work, you would need the customer to read, sign and return (self addressed envelope of course) prior to engagement.

We do this for all work over £1000.

It's a$$ covering mate, that's all

My "nose" is normally good at sniffing out the difficult ones - and they get high prices - but this chap slipped through!

 

[spark 68]

To be fair (to both sides) the client may have been "burned" by another spark in the past, I am sure we have all been asked to certify work by "A.N. other Electrical contractor" at one time or other, it may simply be that he has had work done previously by a less than scrupulous contractor and then had problems with certification and/or notification on completion in the past and is just covering his own arxse on this occasion.

 

[Midwest]

I might remind NAPIT about this as it generally takes a minimum of three weeks before I get the cert through my door. If NAPIT are doing 21 days that gives them 9 days to get the cert to me technically. Fat chance of that happening!

Are you referring to a EIC or MW, as RB is referring to the notification to LBC?

 

[NDG Elecs]

Are you referring to a EIC or MW, as RB is referring to the notification to LBC?

Am referring to the compliance cert, not EIC.

I notify online within 21 days and NAPIT then send compliance cert to me or direct to customer. If I notified the same day it would beer pushing it to get the compliance cert off NAPIT within the 30 days RB mentions.

 

[Midwest]

I've only queried with one customer about how long before they received their notification, and it was 5 days after I completed the on-line process with Elecsa. Finalising the EIC, causes a tick box for notification to appear. Enter the client details etc and reason for notification, and that's it from my end.

Think email even quicker?

 

[Midwest]

As snotty as this customer sounds, from what you've described he's in the right, as annoying as that may be.

As for the T's & C's, it's no good pointing people in their general direction. Unless you have their signature on a paper copy of those T's & C's, they haven't agreed to diddly squat.

For future work, it might be best to state at the outset that you want staged payments, and to include it in your T's & C's which you should be requesting that in order to carry out the work, you would need the customer to read, sign and return (self addressed envelope of course) prior to engagement.

We do this for all work over £1000.

It's a$$ covering mate, that's all

Whilst signatures are ideal, electronic signature by way of email, I believe, has deemed to be acceptance of a contract.
Email Contracts Can be Binding - Don't Get Caught Out | HJi
Even verbal agreement (difficult to prove grant you) is enough.

So from what I've read here, Murdoch and his client have a contract. It would be down to a court to decide the finer detail.

PS : Not sure if you got into email exchange Murdoch?

 

[Octopus]

Stroma certification can be sent by email and that, as far as I know, is next day!

 

[shanky887614]

Arrgh, see where he gets the name of Murdoch now!

yup, mad dog murdoch ^_

 

[Geordie Spark]

As snotty as this customer sounds, from what you've described he's in the right, as annoying as that may be.

As for the T's & C's, it's no good pointing people in their general direction. Unless you have their signature on a paper copy of those T's & C's, they haven't agreed to diddly squat.

For future work, it might be best to state at the outset that you want staged payments, and to include it in your T's & C's which you should be requesting that in order to carry out the work, you would need the customer to read, sign and return (self addressed envelope of course) prior to engagement.

We do this for all work over £1000.

It's a$$ covering mate, that's all

Evenin' Rommel, how's it going at El Alamein?? :tank: