Code on eicr? help resolve an arguement

[OldeSparky]

Hi Peeps,

Not on here often but looking to resolve an argument.

My self and my work buddy are having a disagreement on a code.

Senario is pvc wylex board, domestic property fitted with hrc fuses. No rcd protection. Tests all ok. Fitted according to the regs in-force at the time, i guess 15th.

I would give a code 3 he insists a code 2.

Please help resolve this.

Thank you.

 

[westward10]

Code for what.

 

[Leesparkykent]

I wouldn't code the board being plastic anything. The lack of RCD protection to lighting supplying a bathroom c3 if supplementary bonding is in place c2 if not. lack of additional protection to cables buried in wall at a depth of less than 50mm C3. No RCD protection for sockets on ground floor C2.

 

[Doomed]

I wouldn't code the board being plastic anything. The lack of RCD protection to lighting supplying a bathroom c3 if supplementary bonding is in place c2 if not. lack of additional protection to cables buried in wall at a depth of less than 50mm C3. No RCD protection for sockets on ground floor C2.

I concur, except with the plastic, we are NICEIC and they C3 plastic if under a wooden stair case or in the sole means of escape and not in a fireproof box.

 

[westward10]

I would not Code the board either, the lack of additional rcd protection warrants a minimum Code 3 according to BS7671 but your own evidence and findings may change this for example, socket outlets being used for equipment out if doors.

 

[OldeSparky]

Code for what.

lack of rcds

 

[davesparks]

lack of rcds

Lack of RCDs for what? Sockets, buried cables, bathrooms, fault protection?

 

[westward10]

I would assume additional protection.

 

[Leesparkykent]

 

[telectrix]

C2.5 . there.

 

[Pete999]

I concur, except with the plastic, we are NICEIC and they C3 plastic if under a wooden stair case or in the sole means of escape and not in a fireproof box.

That's the NICEIC for you anything to buck the system.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

I concur, except with the plastic, we are NICEIC and they C3 plastic if under a wooden stair case or in the sole means of escape and not in a fireproof box.

They don't code anything. They take your money.

You do the coding and if you go along with someone else's rules then they may as well be signing your reports.

I had a big argument with the Electrical Safety Council and the NICEIC regarding their C3 code for no RCD on sockets post amendment 3 that they put in the best practice guide. If there is no labelling or risk assessment in place then there was no control measures implemented. I tested schools across York, Sunderland and Newcastle and my reports were held as I put a C2 on sockets in clasrooms that didn't have an RCD. The contractor held them as they didn't correspond with the best practice guide.

They pulled the NICEIC in, which then went to the ESC, but once they realised I was right (and that I wasn't intimidated with their bullsh!t) and that the best practice guide was 'too vague' and didn't consider all scenarios, they backed off.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I would have refused your report on the basis of the code C2s.
Most definitely a code C3.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

I would have refused your report on the basis of the code C2s.
Most definitely a code C3.

You tell me how a 6 year old, using electrical equipment on the socket shown, with no risk assessment, no 30mA RCD, or skilled person observing who is empowered with the wisdom to keep 20 kids to work safely is a C3?

 

[davesparks]

You tell me how a 6 year old, using electrical equipment on the socket shown, with no risk assessment, no 30mA RCD, or skilled person observing who is empowered with the wisdom to keep 20 kids to work safely is a C3?

I don't think we can code children using sockets at all.

In my opinion the socket is located incorrectly and I would be looking to code that with a recommendation to move or remove the socket.

As far as I know a 30mA RCD will only prevent a healthy adult from death from an electric shock, not a small child.

 

[davesparks]

Further to my above post I think the situation highlighted is mostly a non-electrical issue but is more a duty of care issue which would be far better dealt with by reporting to ofsted than being recorded on an eicr.

 

[Ian1981]

Are 6 year old children expected to use sockets?
Or anything to do with what's plugged on not them without any supervision at least?

 

[Ian1981]

Are 6 year old children expected to use sockets?
Or anything to do with what's plugged in them without any supervision at least?
I think not

 

[Rpa07]

Twins? @Ian1981

 

[Ian1981]

Twins? @Ian1981

Haha it's a glitch in the matrix.
Should have took the blue pill

 

[Rpa07]

I want to know if @widdler was standing on a chair when he took that photo or is it a kitchen made for a 6 year old?

 

[Ian1981]

I want to know if @widdler was standing on a chair when he took that photo or is it a kitchen made for a 6 year old?

It's made for little ones in a nursery by the looks.
Why that socket was installed there god has not knows.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

The socket is one of many in the school used by everybody. Some in particular, such as the picture, were in the nursery so kids from 4 years old.

When discussed with the school, the equipment plugged in was for the children to use.. they had a bubble machine and other recreational bits and bobs.

When I initially questioned it I was told it passed 'health and safety'. When I raised it to the head teacher she said it was known by Ofsted. But then again who from Ofsted understands electrical regulations? They still in some parts of the country insist on 'child protective socket covers'...

Ofsted is another issue which I am getting drawn into at the moment anyway.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

You tell me how a 6 year old, using electrical equipment on the socket shown, with no risk assessment, no 30mA RCD, or skilled person observing who is empowered with the wisdom to keep 20 kids to work safely is a C3?

To start with, how do you know a 6 year old is using electrical equipment?
If a 6 year old is using electrical equipment, how do you know a risk assessment has not been conducted?
Statutory Legislation requires any person who would come into contact with electricity or electrical devices as part of their work, to satisfy the conditions in BS7671 to be deemed either skilled or instructed.
Are you suggesting that the School is or intends committing a criminal act, by not complying with Statutory legislation?
What about in dwellings, do you check whether there are children residing at the address of the installation then apply a code C2 if there are.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

When you say 'used by everybody' is that supervised or unsupervised?

 

[Sparky Ninja]

To start with, how do you know a 6 year old is using electrical equipment?

Through observation. Being a competent/skilled person I survey the schools when occupied and test when not occupied. I was also informed that they were there for such a purpose.

If a 6 year old is using electrical equipment, how do you know a risk assessment has not been conducted?

I know because I asked for the task specific risk assessment relating to the pupil's use of electrical equipment.

Statutory Legislation requires any person who would come into contact with electricity or electrical devices as part of their work, to satisfy the conditions in BS7671 to be deemed either skilled or instructed.
Are you suggesting that the School is or intends committing a criminal act, by not complying with Statutory legislation?

You are interpreting legislation and British standards very poorly.
The school does not have 'intentions' of committing criminal acts. It has outdated controls which have not been supported and developed by the local authorities.

What about in dwellings, do you check whether there are children residing at the address of the installation then apply a code C2 if there are.

No.

But let's make something perfectly clear. A skilled electrical inspector should not use a 'reference guide' or 'summary sheet' or 'NICEIC pocket manual' to make inspection decisions. He/she should use their knowledge of the craft and combine it with their own ability to risk assess. If you follow someone else's reference material then how do you know it has validated and considered all potential risks.

When you say 'used by everybody' is that supervised or unsupervised?

Define supervise?

If you say to the teacher "are you watching over these kids", then they'll say yeah.

If you say to the teacher "are you watching over the kids as a responsible person to ensure that the school does not infringe the requirements of the electricity at work regulations?", they'll shun responsibility to the 'health and safety auditor'.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Again, how do you know that a Risk Assessment has not been conducted?

No I am not interpreting the Legislation and standards very poorly.
The Legislation requires workers to have sufficient technical knowledge, experience or to be under appropriate supervision so as to prevent danger.
BS7671 defined a skilled person as being someone with technical knowledge or sufficient experience to enable them to avoid dangers electricity may present.
And an instructed person as being someone adequately advised or supervised by skilled persons to enable them to avoid dangers electricity may present.

Why do you treat dwellings differently from Schools?
At least with a School there is Statutory Legislation in place to ensure safety.
In a dwelling there is nothing.

Not sure what using a reference guide, summary sheet or NICEIC pocket guide has to do with anything?

Supervise as in making sure the children are not doing anything which could place them in danger.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

I think my last post was clear enough, you're just repeating yourself.

It looks like you are going to stay up there on that horse so I won't bother wasting my time.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Perhaps I have repeated myself, only because you haven't answered.
You stated that you asked for a task specific Risk Assessment.
Such a statement suggests you expect there to be a written Risk Assessment.
There's no law requiring written Risk Assessments.
Yes documenting Risk Assessments can be useful, but still there is no Statutory requirement to do so.
So when you asked for the Risk Assessment, did they respond that they had not conducted one, or just that they didn't have a written copy?
Still no explaination as to why you treat dwellings differently to Schools. Perhaps electricity in dwellings is different from that in Schools?

You mentioned reference guides, summary sheets and NICEIC pocket guides. What you need is none of those, you just need a copy of BS7671.
As long as you conduct your inspection in accordance with BS7671, everything will be fine.
Problem with your coding, is it is not in accordance with BS7671.
You are basically stating that something is unsafe today which the Regulations said was safe last year.
There is no way that any edition or amendment of BS7671 is ever going to say earlier editions or amendments had unsafe requirements.

 

[davesparks]

There is no way that any edition or amendment of BS7671 is ever going to say earlier editions or amendments had unsafe requirements.

Actually there is, the regulations are pretty definite that you cannot install a fuse in a neutral, yet once upon a time the regulation says required it for a single phase circuit.