My Panel

[Engineer54]

Ditto shame no slotted trunking but very nice anyway and I've seen a lot worse

That's taking it a little too far, to be honest...

 

[Darkwood]

Yes think everyone covered the points so a good several areas to address but having said that your achillies heel here is the boss, cutting corners like he does as you have suggested, if you have designed and built several panels before as you suggest then i would expect you to have a stock supply of numbering kits, slotted trunking etc with only the contactors, relays etc to order to spec'.
I would in your shoes be looking into joining a company who build control panels as a main part of their income, this way you wont pick up the bad habits that your boss is cornering you into doing.... its not a criticism but constructive, or at the very least have a sit down with the boss and explain he needs to budget in for the above points.

This one i did shows the trunking and numbering you require although before others point out it lacks venting and E-stop but on clients request as its to be stripped in Switzerland and fitted into a larger control panel, i just rigged this up for a on-site temp' rig to show the clients the machine running before we exported it.

 

[netblindpaul]

Remember though if you ate building a machine to be used in a business undertaking, then this is legally putting the machine onto the market, thus it must comply with any and all regulations that apply to bought in machines.
I doubt that this panel would tbh, and not the apprentices fault really.
However the law still applies, and it's panel does not meet the requirements of the statute law, or harmonised standards for compliance with the relevant new approach directives.

 

[Robotstar5]

Remember though if you ate building a machine to be used in a business undertaking, then this is legally putting the machine onto the market, thus it must comply with any and all regulations that apply to bought in machines.
I doubt that this panel would tbh, and not the apprentices fault really.
However the law still applies, and it's panel does not meet the requirements of the statute law, or harmonised standards for compliance with the relevant new approach directives.

That's why I suggested a seminar from some one like Pilz, when I went they gave all the neccessary info regarding directives, BS/EN etc.

 

[Ashley Williams]

OK answering a few of these...

The supply to the power supply was changed i was waiting for the brown to come in to stock it was due in the next morning i just put it in to test the panel out.

The Black 400ac supply to the contactor etc I labelled cruidly using a dymo labeller with L1, L2 and L3 around them. I wasnt allowed brown and grey.

As for the 24v wiring i am not familair with the suitable colours for 24v dc I will read up on this i promise but yes in hign site it could be much better i will take this into account if i ever make a panel again.

The PSU is 10A.

I suggested a small PLC but it was rejected by the powers that be.

I have spot on schematics. I have checked them three times but they are in the machine now not with me.

As for risk assesment in all honesty i dont know the extent the checks etc.

Today i had to make some modifications to an exsisting panel by removing the DOL forward and reverse starter and replacing it with a VSD i caused a bit of a fuss when i went and bought a numbering kit on account from the wholesalers. But i refused to do it any other way. I kept the same colour wiring as the exsisting panel. I kept the 400ac supply and the supply to the motor the same numbers and suitably numbered the control wires. The machine is not back in service yet. the only problem i have is no professional way of updating the wiring diagram. But to the show part of the struggle i am up against my boss came along and said oh ive soldered some wires on the potentiometer for you he mounted it in the front half of the panel while im working in the rear he then goes can you see the wires poking through to find he was soldered a bit of old three core 1mm flex on to it that he had cut off an old work lamp. I honestly couldnt believe it. I waited for him to go and i removed it resolding on some 0.5mm tri rated insulating the terminals with heat shrink.

If i cause to much of a fuss about things i get taken off jobs and put on greasing duty's etc which means i learn nothing...

I am glad of my job and i do like many aspects of it im in a situation where i completed C+G 2330 full time course at college and only 3 out of 23 got jobs. and one of them is working for a compressor repair company doing more pipe work than anything. So i see myself as fortunate as ive got a little experiance under my belt. I am always open to advice an will always question something if i dont think its right.

Thank you everyone for your advice and the people who has posted pictures up of there panels i like them i hope one day i will have the knowledge to build a panel to that standard.

Ash

Firstly, thanks for showing your work.
Secondly, holes are rightfully being blown into this example!

You have stated you are not a panel building company... who has verified your circuit design in relation to the Press risk assessment?

Presses... are they covered by special regulations?

Your 400vac (assumed as no signs) feed wiring is in black... your +24vdc is in black... your switched neutral is in blue... your PSU supply (230vac) is in blue... your -24vdc is in blue... You say you want to raise standards... DO IT BY ADHERING TO CURRENT STANDARDS.

Is it an earthed ELV control circuit?

Your lack of wire numbers may be omitted assuming your schematics are spot-on! I take it you have schematics... if so are they computer drafted?

What are you powering with that PSU? It's huge. What is it rated at? 10 or 20A?

These days anything over four relays should be replaced with a programmable logic block or smart relay... thats not to say it must be.

Safety relay? To what safety category have you installed to? Are external monitoring contacts used as part of resetting the light barrier?

What tells you that the motor DOL has tripped? If it alerts the operator then it prevents him fiddling when he can't start the m/c.

Are we to assume all your field wiring leaves from the top of the panel?

I'm not keen on your control wiring passing so close over the supply of the isolator.


Your last sentence... they should not be left wanting!


Please show a photo of your schematics.

regards
s.f

 

[Ashley Williams]

And i am very interested in a PILZ seminar i had a brief look on there website but couldnt see much i will look tomorrow when im not so tired.

Ash

 

[big show]

That's taking it a little too far, to be honest...

Now hang on I wasn't having a go just saying the only thing to stick out obvious was the panel trunking otherwise it's a nice job

 

[Darkwood]

With regards to the VSD you installed- make sure you follow the the earthing arrangements as per manufacturers instructions! .... the earthing system and filtering of these devices is crucial and can create all sorts of issues if done incorrectly.... i can relate and understand your situe' here but you really should be taking relevent courses in panel/control systems long before even attempting what your doing, your knowledge is crude at most (no offense meant) thus you have the functional know-how of the parts you install but lack the knowledge of Regulations, Earthing and filtering arrangements to prevent RF interference and dampen harmonics, Risk assessment, ....etc etc sorry but this list goes on.
You are really creating a deep hole for yourself here and although you explain you would be put on a crappy job instead it should really be an issue of not been ready yet and putting up with the crappy alternative jobs until you have trained up to do panel building. Its clear those above you are clueless thus you have no proffesional guide which leaves you wide open to bad habits and practices well behind what are required.
To sum it up... if a machine breakdown or worse a users receives an injury or is killed then the few minor issues we brought up will be the least of your worries as we cant truely scrutinise it any deeper without at the very least seeing schematics, this is a press and usually carry quite an high Risk category and thus have to be designed very carefully with fail safe in mind and all aspects of user risk.

My previous comments were regarding what you initially asked about your control panel... but through reply and response ive got a deeper understanding of what your trying to achieve here hence ive posted a bit harsher but hope you understand why, alot of good points have been pointed out by others and puting it all in context you should now be seeing the depth of water you are in, although this is a great side of electrics to get into - try not to jump in the deep end before you can swim.

 

[netblindpaul]

You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.
All a.c. power wiring should be black, with identification numbering.
All a.c. control wiring, regardless of voltage should be red, with identification numbering.
All d.c. control wiring should be blue, regardless of polarity or voltage, with identification numbering.
Don't have 60204 to hand, I'll "try" to remember to dig the table number out.
Also please remember that if you are designing equipment, you must have copies of the relevant standards and legislation to refer to at all times.
There is over £2k to start with.
If you don't have them and there is an issue then you will have been deemed non compliant, as you cannot design and build to a standard that you don't have.
This is why the scams insist on a copy of 7671 for their members.

 

[Engineer54]

Now hang on I wasn't having a go just saying the only thing to stick out obvious was the panel trunking otherwise it's a nice job

I know you wasn't having a go, which was why i posted my comment. If you have read the comments posted by those that have far more extensive experience in panel fabrication than either of us, it's plainly obvious that it's not a nice job. ...And i'm not laying any blame on the OP, as he should be conducting any work undertaken with suitable supervision....

 

[Robotstar5]

And i am very interested in a PILZ seminar i had a brief look on there website but couldnt see much i will look tomorrow when im not so tired.

Ash

I think this is the one I went on, found it very informative.

 

[ACDC]

You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.

From 60204
13.2.4 Identification by colour
Where colour-coding is used for identification of conductors (other than the protective
conductor (see 13.2.2) and the neutral conductor (see 13.2.3)), the following colours may be
used:
BLACK, BROWN, RED, ORANGE, YELLOW, GREEN, BLUE (including LIGHT BLUE),
VIOLET, GREY, WHITE, PINK, TURQUOISE.
NOTE This list of colours is derived from IEC 60757.

 

[silva.foxx]

Ash...in Llay is a training co that have done Pilz courses in the past. E&L Products. It's by Star Cleaning.

 

[silva.foxx]

My reference to wiring colours was to highlight they were being mixed in this case.

 

[netblindpaul]

You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.

From 60204
13.2.4 Identification by colour
Where colour-coding is used for identification of conductors (other than the protective
conductor (see 13.2.2) and the neutral conductor (see 13.2.3)), the following colours may be
used:
BLACK, BROWN, RED, ORANGE, YELLOW, GREEN, BLUE (including LIGHT BLUE),
VIOLET, GREY, WHITE, PINK, TURQUOISE.
NOTE This list of colours is derived from IEC 60757.

I was thinking more about this section!
Where colour-coding is used for identification of conductors, it is recommended that they be
colour-coded as follows:
– BLACK: a.c. and d.c. power circuits;
– RED: a.c. control circuits;
– BLUE: d.c. control circuits;
– ORANGE: excepted circuits in accordance with 5.3.5.
Exceptions: to the above are permitted where:
– insulation is used that is not available in the colours recommended; or
– multiconductor cable is used, but not the bicolour combination GREEN-AND-YELLOW.

 

[vaughant]

Orange is usually things like panel lighting etc,stuff fed from the other side of the isolator and hence live even when the isolators disconnected.
They use orange wire where I am now in plc controlled contractors to show it could be energised from elsewhere.

 

[alarm man]

i remenber doing some panels for submarines and the cables were all pink,cant remember the type of cable but it was the worst cable to handle,loom and strip,ds might be able to shed some light on the name of it tho

 

[vaughant]

I don't class Germans as lazy sparks yet they do a good wiring system using contact numbers rather than wire IDs. They have spot-on schematics to supplement this type of wiring method.

As you've said...I've seen many-a-panel with no markers nor schematics. It's a character-building task when faultfinding them ones.

Sorry if it came across that way,I meant that people who DON'T follow the German system yet also don't mark cables up are the laziest most selfish sparks about.
Ive seen tons of it where I am,even on brand new installs. I've questioned the lack of diagrams,support and general appalling attitude to the vitality of diagrams where I am and had the answer from my department head of "we've run like this since 1700 and something".
...hence I went for a job interview on thursday,elsewhere of course!!!

 

[johnboy6083]

You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.
All a.c. power wiring should be black, with identification numbering.
All a.c. control wiring, regardless of voltage should be red, with identification numbering.
All d.c. control wiring should be blue, regardless of polarity or voltage, with identification numbering.
Don't have 60204 to hand, I'll "try" to remember to dig the table number out.
Also please remember that if you are designing equipment, you must have copies of the relevant standards and legislation to refer to at all times.
There is over £2k to start with.
If you don't have them and there is an issue then you will have been deemed non compliant, as you cannot design and build to a standard that you don't have.
This is why the scams insist on a copy of 7671 for their members.

I know and appreiciate that your a stickler fior the rules paul, and for good reason, but regarding the black cable for all of the phases, it is not something i would use.
Ive had the misfortune of working on an american panel (for a water atomiser), and that was wired in black cables with numbers. It was a pain. If i has to modify that panel slightly, and a number fell off 2 cables at the asme time, then its a pain to identify. I

m guessing that the standard you refer to is a Cenelec or IEC standard, and uses the colour black for more political reasons (ie harmonisation). In my perosinal opionion, if a panel is to be built for the UK, the the UK phase colours should be used. If its to be built for export to unkown then maybe stick with the black with numbers.
I work for a subcontractor of a large water company, and all of this water companies panels (well the ones i have seen), use UK phase colours.
I cannot see a court ect ever deciding that you are wrong for using widely recognised colours.

I cannot see an

 

[netblindpaul]

Well if you use phase colours then the panel cannot be CE marked as it will not comply with the requirements of the LVD as it will not comply with the recognised standards that are put in place to ensure compliance.
If you can't handle wire numbers correctly then stay out of panels is another answer
You may find that a court will find you guilty, and if I were the expert witness you met, then I would be trying to send you down end of story.

 

[Bobster]

On the sites I work on having numbers and a drawing are bonuses. This is what I've been working in tonight, no drawings, no marking up, 30 years of extras and links to get things working and a site manager breathing down my neck to get it fixed.

 

[cogsey133]

i remenber doing some panels for submarines and the cables were all pink,cant remember the type of cable but it was the worst cable to handle,loom and strip,ds might be able to shed some light on the name of it tho

Having worked on many ship and submarine refits i know the pink cable as 16/02 simply referring to the number of cores and core size. For the life of me the proper name has gone right out of my head......lol

 

[johnboy6083]

Well if you use phase colours then the panel cannot be CE marked as it will not comply with the requirements of the LVD as it will not comply with the recognised standards that are put in place to ensure compliance.
If you can't handle wire numbers correctly then stay out of panels is another answer
You may find that a court will find you guilty, and if I were the expert witness you met, then I would be trying to send you down end of story.

I suppose in a court scenaruio, you would have to prove that any work that i did in the panel was dengerous,not that it didnt comply. Obviously you would use the standard you referred to(amongst others i reckon) to help you prove this. I cant see how stciking to widely reconised phase colours would result in anything other than maybe a mention in a snagging list.

Here is a snippet i found from Explaining the changes in the 2006 version of BS EN 60204-1

While there is no legal requirement (in the UK, at least) to comply with the requirements of standards that are harmonised to the Machinery Directive, such as BS EN 60204-1, there is a legal requirement to meet the Essential Health and Safety Requirements of the Directive. Nevertheless, harmonised standards are 'best practice' documents and therefore offer users an 'approved route' to compliance.


Can you explain please Paul?

By the way im not picking an argument, but the relevant machine standards are an area i know little about, and i would like to learn more. If you have any relevant learning material and or links, i would be grateful if you could post them.

Thanks

John

 

[Knobhead]

I’ve kept out of this so far but this furore over wire colours is growing out of all proportion.

Most panels built in house will not require CE accreditation. Therefore wire colour isn’t an issue. Many panels will have AC or DC of more than one voltage, why make identification difficult by insisting on only one colour whatever the voltage.

Having worked on control panels with up to 1200V AC in them, I want those wires to shout at me.

 

[netblindpaul]

Tony, (Et Al,)

Any equipment put onto the market is required to meet the requirements of the "New Approach" directives.
These are the LVD, the EMCD & the MD, amongst others.
Putting on to the market, includes manufacture for ones own use within your organisation.
End of story.
This is set out in statute law.
Thus panels made for ones own use must now be CE marked, sorry, but that is now the legal situation in the EU, chose to ignore this at your peril, as if you ignore the A, B & C standards when you design your equipment, in the event of an issue, an expert witness will make mincemeat out of you unless, you are very lucky.
This has been the situation since these directives came into force.

Also, with externally sourced equipment having to meet these standards, in house equipment should meet the same standards so that there is a common platform.
Thus reducing confusion & INCREASING safety.

No one complains about using the correct colours under BS7671, so why can people not get it into their heads that there are other standards that require compliance with other colour codes, it is not difficult.
MEET the rules, its easy.

Tony, one other things, you have moved from LOW voltage to HIGH voltage.
Which is BTW the NEW term for what used to be called MV & HV.
We can't bring HV into this.
HOWEVER I do agree that if you have HV in a panel then this MUST shout out at you.
Please can we leave HV out, it is a different ball game completely.
If anyone here is playing with HV, then if they are in need to ask questions here to guide them, then it is doubtful they will be around to read the answers!

Whilst I can see your point, the problem is that these are the rules we must abide by, just like BS7671, there are other standards that must be adhered to.
BS EN 60204-1:2006+A1:2009 is one of them when designing and manufacturing control systems, there are many others.
If you are not going to meet the standards, then you need to be sure that in the event of an issue that you can prove that what you did meets the statute law requirements.
You may also like to ensure that your insurance covers you for such deviations in design, as they may revoke cover, leaving you to take the full brunt & burden of any issues personally.

Why does almost nobody on here have a problem suggesting and meeting the requirements of BS7671, but seems to care little about other standards, which are just as, if not more important?
I can't for the life of me understand it.

Just comply its easier.
Stop trying to justify breaking the rules, why should you, why would you when there could be so much at stake, we are not talking about a £60 speeding fine here, people can DIE.

 

[johnboy6083]

Well if you are correct Paul, and i think you probably are (although im of the opinion thatrules and regulations are open to interpretation), then there are an awful lot of panel manufacturers that are breaking the law, including ones that i have worked for (not in the panel building side of the business though). I can think of 4 firms off the top of my head who have all built panels recently for the company i work for, who still use phase colours in their panels.

As i said im not trying to cause an argument, im here to learn.

John

 

[netblindpaul]

Well they should not be using phase colours, see the standard, it states what is required.
Was the wiring 6491x type?

 

[johnboy6083]

no it was BS6231 tri rated. The usual type of panel i work in is MCCs, so this includes incoming ACB's or MCB's (one mains, one generator backup), power distribution via feeder panels (MCCB/switchfuse in compartments), and then VSD compartments. Almost all use phase colours, Some use black cable but with phase colour sleeves/heatshrink.

 

[Darkwood]

Well if you are correct Paul, and i think you probably are (although im of the opinion thatrules and regulations are open to interpretation), then there are an awful lot of panel manufacturers that are breaking the law, including ones that i have worked for (not in the panel building side of the business though). I can think of 4 firms off the top of my head who have all built panels recently for the company i work for, who still use phase colours in their panels.

As i said im not trying to cause an argument, im here to learn.

Breaking the law and possible contrevening of the regs are 2 totally different things try not to confuse them or every sparkie on this site would have served time.:devilish:

 

[netblindpaul]

Wow now.

Are you talking about machinery control panels under the LVD, EMC & MD for say a machine tool?

OR, are you talking about "Panel Boards" for distribution systems? Perhaps even a basic MCC?

Do the panels come under 60204 or 61439?

There is a BIG, BIG, BIG, BIG difference, &, the colour coding is one of these.

It sounds like there is some misunderstanding here.

There is nothing wrong under 60204 with using black cable with sleeving for a.c. power.

However, we need to understand the product standards first.