My Panel

[Robotstar5]

And i am very interested in a PILZ seminar i had a brief look on there website but couldnt see much i will look tomorrow when im not so tired.

Ash

I think this is the one I went on, found it very informative.

 

[ACDC]

You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.

From 60204
13.2.4 Identification by colour
Where colour-coding is used for identification of conductors (other than the protective
conductor (see 13.2.2) and the neutral conductor (see 13.2.3)), the following colours may be
used:
BLACK, BROWN, RED, ORANGE, YELLOW, GREEN, BLUE (including LIGHT BLUE),
VIOLET, GREY, WHITE, PINK, TURQUOISE.
NOTE This list of colours is derived from IEC 60757.

 

[silva.foxx]

Ash...in Llay is a training co that have done Pilz courses in the past. E&L Products. It's by Star Cleaning.

 

[silva.foxx]

My reference to wiring colours was to highlight they were being mixed in this case.

 

[netblindpaul]

You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.

From 60204
13.2.4 Identification by colour
Where colour-coding is used for identification of conductors (other than the protective
conductor (see 13.2.2) and the neutral conductor (see 13.2.3)), the following colours may be
used:
BLACK, BROWN, RED, ORANGE, YELLOW, GREEN, BLUE (including LIGHT BLUE),
VIOLET, GREY, WHITE, PINK, TURQUOISE.
NOTE This list of colours is derived from IEC 60757.

I was thinking more about this section!
Where colour-coding is used for identification of conductors, it is recommended that they be
colour-coded as follows:
– BLACK: a.c. and d.c. power circuits;
– RED: a.c. control circuits;
– BLUE: d.c. control circuits;
– ORANGE: excepted circuits in accordance with 5.3.5.
Exceptions: to the above are permitted where:
– insulation is used that is not available in the colours recommended; or
– multiconductor cable is used, but not the bicolour combination GREEN-AND-YELLOW.

 

[vaughant]

Orange is usually things like panel lighting etc,stuff fed from the other side of the isolator and hence live even when the isolators disconnected.
They use orange wire where I am now in plc controlled contractors to show it could be energised from elsewhere.

 

[alarm man]

i remenber doing some panels for submarines and the cables were all pink,cant remember the type of cable but it was the worst cable to handle,loom and strip,ds might be able to shed some light on the name of it tho

 

[vaughant]

I don't class Germans as lazy sparks yet they do a good wiring system using contact numbers rather than wire IDs. They have spot-on schematics to supplement this type of wiring method.

As you've said...I've seen many-a-panel with no markers nor schematics. It's a character-building task when faultfinding them ones.

Sorry if it came across that way,I meant that people who DON'T follow the German system yet also don't mark cables up are the laziest most selfish sparks about.
Ive seen tons of it where I am,even on brand new installs. I've questioned the lack of diagrams,support and general appalling attitude to the vitality of diagrams where I am and had the answer from my department head of "we've run like this since 1700 and something".
...hence I went for a job interview on thursday,elsewhere of course!!!

 

[johnboy6083]

You should not be using brown & grey in a panel anyway for phase conductors really, as these colours are not recognised in 60204.
All a.c. power wiring should be black, with identification numbering.
All a.c. control wiring, regardless of voltage should be red, with identification numbering.
All d.c. control wiring should be blue, regardless of polarity or voltage, with identification numbering.
Don't have 60204 to hand, I'll "try" to remember to dig the table number out.
Also please remember that if you are designing equipment, you must have copies of the relevant standards and legislation to refer to at all times.
There is over £2k to start with.
If you don't have them and there is an issue then you will have been deemed non compliant, as you cannot design and build to a standard that you don't have.
This is why the scams insist on a copy of 7671 for their members.

I know and appreiciate that your a stickler fior the rules paul, and for good reason, but regarding the black cable for all of the phases, it is not something i would use.
Ive had the misfortune of working on an american panel (for a water atomiser), and that was wired in black cables with numbers. It was a pain. If i has to modify that panel slightly, and a number fell off 2 cables at the asme time, then its a pain to identify. I

m guessing that the standard you refer to is a Cenelec or IEC standard, and uses the colour black for more political reasons (ie harmonisation). In my perosinal opionion, if a panel is to be built for the UK, the the UK phase colours should be used. If its to be built for export to unkown then maybe stick with the black with numbers.
I work for a subcontractor of a large water company, and all of this water companies panels (well the ones i have seen), use UK phase colours.
I cannot see a court ect ever deciding that you are wrong for using widely recognised colours.

I cannot see an

 

[netblindpaul]

Well if you use phase colours then the panel cannot be CE marked as it will not comply with the requirements of the LVD as it will not comply with the recognised standards that are put in place to ensure compliance.
If you can't handle wire numbers correctly then stay out of panels is another answer
You may find that a court will find you guilty, and if I were the expert witness you met, then I would be trying to send you down end of story.

 

[Bobster]

On the sites I work on having numbers and a drawing are bonuses. This is what I've been working in tonight, no drawings, no marking up, 30 years of extras and links to get things working and a site manager breathing down my neck to get it fixed.

 

[cogsey133]

i remenber doing some panels for submarines and the cables were all pink,cant remember the type of cable but it was the worst cable to handle,loom and strip,ds might be able to shed some light on the name of it tho

Having worked on many ship and submarine refits i know the pink cable as 16/02 simply referring to the number of cores and core size. For the life of me the proper name has gone right out of my head......lol

 

[johnboy6083]

Well if you use phase colours then the panel cannot be CE marked as it will not comply with the requirements of the LVD as it will not comply with the recognised standards that are put in place to ensure compliance.
If you can't handle wire numbers correctly then stay out of panels is another answer
You may find that a court will find you guilty, and if I were the expert witness you met, then I would be trying to send you down end of story.

I suppose in a court scenaruio, you would have to prove that any work that i did in the panel was dengerous,not that it didnt comply. Obviously you would use the standard you referred to(amongst others i reckon) to help you prove this. I cant see how stciking to widely reconised phase colours would result in anything other than maybe a mention in a snagging list.

Here is a snippet i found from Explaining the changes in the 2006 version of BS EN 60204-1

While there is no legal requirement (in the UK, at least) to comply with the requirements of standards that are harmonised to the Machinery Directive, such as BS EN 60204-1, there is a legal requirement to meet the Essential Health and Safety Requirements of the Directive. Nevertheless, harmonised standards are 'best practice' documents and therefore offer users an 'approved route' to compliance.


Can you explain please Paul?

By the way im not picking an argument, but the relevant machine standards are an area i know little about, and i would like to learn more. If you have any relevant learning material and or links, i would be grateful if you could post them.

Thanks

John

 

[Knobhead]

I’ve kept out of this so far but this furore over wire colours is growing out of all proportion.

Most panels built in house will not require CE accreditation. Therefore wire colour isn’t an issue. Many panels will have AC or DC of more than one voltage, why make identification difficult by insisting on only one colour whatever the voltage.

Having worked on control panels with up to 1200V AC in them, I want those wires to shout at me.

 

[netblindpaul]

Tony, (Et Al,)

Any equipment put onto the market is required to meet the requirements of the "New Approach" directives.
These are the LVD, the EMCD & the MD, amongst others.
Putting on to the market, includes manufacture for ones own use within your organisation.
End of story.
This is set out in statute law.
Thus panels made for ones own use must now be CE marked, sorry, but that is now the legal situation in the EU, chose to ignore this at your peril, as if you ignore the A, B & C standards when you design your equipment, in the event of an issue, an expert witness will make mincemeat out of you unless, you are very lucky.
This has been the situation since these directives came into force.

Also, with externally sourced equipment having to meet these standards, in house equipment should meet the same standards so that there is a common platform.
Thus reducing confusion & INCREASING safety.

No one complains about using the correct colours under BS7671, so why can people not get it into their heads that there are other standards that require compliance with other colour codes, it is not difficult.
MEET the rules, its easy.

Tony, one other things, you have moved from LOW voltage to HIGH voltage.
Which is BTW the NEW term for what used to be called MV & HV.
We can't bring HV into this.
HOWEVER I do agree that if you have HV in a panel then this MUST shout out at you.
Please can we leave HV out, it is a different ball game completely.
If anyone here is playing with HV, then if they are in need to ask questions here to guide them, then it is doubtful they will be around to read the answers!

Whilst I can see your point, the problem is that these are the rules we must abide by, just like BS7671, there are other standards that must be adhered to.
BS EN 60204-1:2006+A1:2009 is one of them when designing and manufacturing control systems, there are many others.
If you are not going to meet the standards, then you need to be sure that in the event of an issue that you can prove that what you did meets the statute law requirements.
You may also like to ensure that your insurance covers you for such deviations in design, as they may revoke cover, leaving you to take the full brunt & burden of any issues personally.

Why does almost nobody on here have a problem suggesting and meeting the requirements of BS7671, but seems to care little about other standards, which are just as, if not more important?
I can't for the life of me understand it.

Just comply its easier.
Stop trying to justify breaking the rules, why should you, why would you when there could be so much at stake, we are not talking about a £60 speeding fine here, people can DIE.

 

[johnboy6083]

Well if you are correct Paul, and i think you probably are (although im of the opinion thatrules and regulations are open to interpretation), then there are an awful lot of panel manufacturers that are breaking the law, including ones that i have worked for (not in the panel building side of the business though). I can think of 4 firms off the top of my head who have all built panels recently for the company i work for, who still use phase colours in their panels.

As i said im not trying to cause an argument, im here to learn.

John

 

[netblindpaul]

Well they should not be using phase colours, see the standard, it states what is required.
Was the wiring 6491x type?

 

[johnboy6083]

no it was BS6231 tri rated. The usual type of panel i work in is MCCs, so this includes incoming ACB's or MCB's (one mains, one generator backup), power distribution via feeder panels (MCCB/switchfuse in compartments), and then VSD compartments. Almost all use phase colours, Some use black cable but with phase colour sleeves/heatshrink.

 

[Darkwood]

Well if you are correct Paul, and i think you probably are (although im of the opinion thatrules and regulations are open to interpretation), then there are an awful lot of panel manufacturers that are breaking the law, including ones that i have worked for (not in the panel building side of the business though). I can think of 4 firms off the top of my head who have all built panels recently for the company i work for, who still use phase colours in their panels.

As i said im not trying to cause an argument, im here to learn.

Breaking the law and possible contrevening of the regs are 2 totally different things try not to confuse them or every sparkie on this site would have served time.:devilish:

 

[netblindpaul]

Wow now.

Are you talking about machinery control panels under the LVD, EMC & MD for say a machine tool?

OR, are you talking about "Panel Boards" for distribution systems? Perhaps even a basic MCC?

Do the panels come under 60204 or 61439?

There is a BIG, BIG, BIG, BIG difference, &, the colour coding is one of these.

It sounds like there is some misunderstanding here.

There is nothing wrong under 60204 with using black cable with sleeving for a.c. power.

However, we need to understand the product standards first.