Fitting an LED Spot into a loft hatch?

thisisthecount · Oct 13, 2023

I'm looking to consider asking my electrician to fit one extra LED flush-fit spot in loft hatch so it matches the rows in the ceiling to a total of 9 (3 rows of 3). He's concerned that it won't be safe and I totally get this, but is there a way to install this with some form of strong, flexible 3-core cabling or technique? Just so when we use the hatch, its not going to cause issues?

littlespark · Oct 13, 2023

It’s possible.

A bit of flexi conduit should protect it… but it might be in the way when climbing the ladder.

What sort of downlights are they?

Some come with a separate driver that could sit in the roof space, and extend the ELV wire to the light.

thisisthecount · Oct 13, 2023

littlespark said:
It’s possible.

A bit of flexi conduit should protect it… but it might be in the way when climbing the ladder.

What sort of downlights are they?

Some come with a separate driver that could sit in the roof space, and extend the ELV wire to the light.

well when it closes, its 100% flush with the ceiling and is the exact same paint finish with minimal trim. It will line up perfectly with the middle row. Is there any safe way of doing this? They are very very slim these spots, 30mm. THey don't have drivers, just on their own and one continuous loop.

these are the spots:

https://amzn.eu/d/fPTASVO

DPG · Oct 13, 2023

It's not some I'd do, but it's possible as above.

Can't you arrange the downlights so that you don't need one there?

thisisthecount · Oct 13, 2023

DPG said:
It's not some I'd do, but it's possible as above.

Can't you arrange the downlights so that you don't need one there?

bit late now, all drilled out and ready.... ;-(

littlespark · Oct 13, 2023

If it’s the ones hanging out the ceiling, then they seem very low profile… shouldn’t be a problem even with the ladder

westward10 · Oct 13, 2023

If those are the final connections to those lights then the block connectors need enclosing and the cpcs correctly terminating.

nicebutdim · Oct 13, 2023

westward10 said:
If those are the final connections to those lights then the block connectors need enclosing and the cpcs correctly terminating.

Incredible that this needs to be related to an electrician through their customer - especially given how easily conductors slip out of those cheap push fit connectors.

davesparks · Oct 13, 2023

A flex from a suitable JB to the light will be fine, I'd probably fit a bit of ply or something behind the light to prevent it getting kicked when the ladder is used.

Also coming here and pretending that this is the work of an electrician is just daft, we can all see that those connections are not the work of any qualified person.

Penguin · Oct 13, 2023

thisisthecount said:
I'm looking to consider asking my electrician to fit one extra LED flush-fit spot in loft hatch so it matches the rows in the ceiling to a total of 9 (3 rows of 3). He's concerned that it won't be safe and I totally get this, but is there a way to install this with some form of strong, flexible 3-core cabling or technique? Just so when we use the hatch, its not going to cause issues?

We’ve had the same issue..!!!!

Firstly, ensure the circuit is RCD/O protected.

Secondly, we fitted a small ‘metal’ cage enclosure over the gubbins if the D/L showing between the loft steps.

Thirdly, we installed a double pole ‘Cabinet type Sw’ that isolated that individual DL when the Loft Lid was lowered.
(This was a FIXED loft access, not a floating loft lid).

The main issue however, WAS.!!! even though the power was ISO when the hatch was deployed and the cage was protecting the installation…. It proved a hazard when using the Loft Hatch Stairs…!!!!

We fed it with SY 1.5 3c…..

We returned 2 months later, to do more work, and on the request of the client, ended up fitting LED trip to ALL loft steps under edges , BUT EITHER side of the Hazard if the DL cage unit.

They’ve been happy and problem/ incident free,!!!!

ENSURE YOU MAKE A COMMENT on your Electrical Cert, regards possible Access, due to install, and additions to over come the issue.!

MJPD29 · Oct 13, 2023

Penguin said:
We’ve had the same issue..!!!!

Firstly, ensure the circuit is RCD/O protected.

Secondly, we fitted a small ‘metal’ cage enclosure over the gubbins if the D/L showing between the loft steps.

Thirdly, we installed a double pole ‘Cabinet type Sw’ that isolated that individual DL when the Loft Lid was lowered.
(This was a FIXED loft access, not a floating loft lid).

The main issue however, WAS.!!! even though the power was ISO when the hatch was deployed and the cage was protecting the installation…. It proved a hazard when using the Loft Hatch Stairs…!!!!

We fed it with SY 1.5 3c…..

We returned 2 months later, to do more work, and on the request of the client, ended up fitting LED trip to ALL loft steps under edges , BUT EITHER side of the Hazard if the DL cage unit.

They’ve been happy and problem/ incident free,!!!!

ENSURE YOU MAKE A COMMENT on your Electrical Cert, regards possible Access, due to install, and additions to over come the issue.!

You fed a downlight with sy? How did you terminate it?

Penguin · Oct 13, 2023

MJPD29 said:
You fed a downlight with sy? How did you terminate it?

thisisthecount · Oct 14, 2023

Thanks this is all very useful and has helped me considerably

pirate · Oct 14, 2023

There are quite a few hinges which transfer the power supply, so maybe use on the loft hatch.
This is just one example of many, and some are from very reputable manufacturers.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Seco-Larm-SD-H412-Vandal-resistant-Protecting-Concealing/dp/B082BJBN26

thisisthecount · Oct 14, 2023

that's interesting, thank you!

Penguin · Oct 14, 2023

MJPD29 said:
You fed a downlight with sy? How did you terminate it?

Whisk / stuffers / bandgo / wago.

As the loft hatch is moveable it requires more than just T&E.

MJPD29 · Oct 14, 2023

Penguin said:
Whisk / stuffers / bandgo / wago.

As the loft hatch is moveable it requires more than just T&E.

I would prefer flex in a domestic environment rather than sy which requires a proper brass gland to terminate and cores need sleeved. Using flex negates the need for both of these. The braid is utterly useless in this situation also.

DPG · Oct 14, 2023

Penguin said:
Whisk / stuffers / bandgo / wago.

As the loft hatch is moveable it requires more than just T&E.

Not SY though surely. HO7 or pvc flex?

westward10 · Oct 14, 2023

Of all flexible cords that come to mind SY must be the least flexible.

Penguin · Oct 14, 2023

nicebutdim said:
Incredible that this needs to be related to an electrician through their customer - especially given how easily conductors slip out of those cheap push fit connectors.

Hi nicebutdim,
Please don’t use CHEAP push fit connectors.!
FLEX doesn’t connect well with Push Fit connectors ( hence why we use Feral's ).
Lever operated Wago may perform better.
But Feral crimping is more acceptable.

DPG · Oct 14, 2023

Penguin said:
Hi nicebutdim,
Please don’t use CHEAP push fit connectors.!
FLEX doesn’t connect well with Push Fit connectors ( hence why we use Feral's ).
Lever operated Wago may perform better.
But Feral crimping is more acceptable.

You do realise there are push fit connectors that work with stranded cable right?

I'm sure nicebutdim does.

CAPS AND !!!! over the top punctuation here !!!!!

Penguin · Oct 14, 2023

westward10 said:
Of all flexible cords that come to mind SY must be the least flexible.

SY gave the required mechanical protection of the movement from the loft hatch.!

20/25mm conduit wasn’t suitable in the space available.

Flex didn’t meet the mechanical movement of the operation of the loft access being operated over and over again. Also the fact that clumpy feet using the loaf steps made me want to possibly over engineer the requirement. Safety first.

Penguin · Oct 14, 2023

DPG said:
You do realise there are push fit connectors that work with stranded cable right?

I'm sure nicebutdim does.

CAPS AND !!!! over the top punctuation here !!!!!

Never wishing to offend, just to help.
But you did mention cheap push fits.

APOLOGISES.

DPG · Oct 14, 2023

Penguin said:
Never wishing to offend, just to help.
But you did mention cheap push fits.

APOLOGISES.

I'm not sure I did. But fair enough.

davesparks · Oct 14, 2023

Penguin said:
SY gave the required mechanical protection of the movement from the loft hatch.!

No it doesn't, SY is mechanically not very good at all. And for that apllication you need good flexibility which SY doesn't have.

Penguin said:
Flex didn’t meet the mechanical movement of the operation of the loft access being operated over and over again.

Yes it does, it's flexible cable, the clue is in the name!

A decent rubber flex is far more suitable than SY, with the advantage that rubber flex will actually comply with UK product standards.

mainline · Oct 14, 2023

Penguin said:
Hi nicebutdim,
Please don’t use CHEAP push fit connectors.!
FLEX doesn’t connect well with Push Fit connectors ( hence why we use Feral's ).
Lever operated Wago may perform better.
But Feral crimping is more acceptable.

Ferrules shouldn't be used for push fit connectors.

Penguin · Oct 14, 2023

davesparks said:
No it doesn't, SY is mechanically not very good at all. And for that apllication you need good flexibility which SY doesn't have.

Yes it does, it's flexible cable, the clue is in the name!

A decent rubber flex is far more suitable than SY, with the advantage that rubber flex will actually comply with UK product standards.

On my first original inspection of the loft I noticed a number of mice and squirrel 🐿 traps.
There was evidence of 🐿

activity, so for that reason I over engineered the materials used.

I’m grateful for the lesson, and now understand that Flex, is flexible.

But possibly not as 🐿 tolerant as SY.

Would you agree?

Penguin · Oct 14, 2023

DPG said:
You do realise there are push fit connectors that work with stranded cable right?

I'm sure nicebutdim does.

CAPS AND !!!! over the top punctuation here !!!!!

Please send me a picture of a Push Fit connection unit, that used use with stranded flex.

mainline · Oct 14, 2023

Penguin said:
On my first original inspection of the loft I noticed a number of mice and squirrel 🐿 traps.
There was evidence of 🐿 activity, so for that reason I over engineered the materials used.

I’m grateful for the lesson, and now understand that Flex, is flexible.

But possibly not as 🐿 tolerant as SY.

Would you agree?

SY cable is not suitable in fixed wiring applications that require compliance with British Standard 7671.

DPG · Oct 14, 2023

Penguin said:
Please send me a picture of a Push Fit connection unit, that used use with stranded flex.

I've had far too many beers. Sorry.

mainline · Oct 14, 2023

Penguin said:
Please send me a picture of a Push Fit connection unit, that used use with stranded flex.

PUSH WIRE® connector for junction boxes (773-104) | WAGO GB

PUSH WIRE® connector for junction boxes; for solid and stranded conductors; max. 2.5 mm²; 4-conductor; transparent housing; orange cover; Surrounding air temperature: max 60°C; 2,50 mm²; transparent (4044918397629) Online at WAGO GB!

www.wago.com

DPG · Oct 14, 2023

mainline said:
PUSH WIRE® connector for junction boxes (773-104) | WAGO GB

PUSH WIRE® connector for junction boxes; for solid and stranded conductors; max. 2.5 mm²; 4-conductor; transparent housing; orange cover; Surrounding air temperature: max 60°C; 2,50 mm²; transparent (4044918397629) Online at WAGO GB!

www.wago.com

I think we're being trolled. Having said that I've had a few ales. But I can still punctuate with the best of them. Hurrah.

I'm fact, I'm an assesor of beer drinking. Cheers! Beer.

Penguin · Oct 14, 2023

mainline said:
SY cable is not suitable in fixed wiring applications that require compliance with British Standard 7671.

Correct, but there is movement, and not a fixed application.

nicebutdim · Oct 14, 2023

Penguin said:
Hi nicebutdim,
Please don’t use CHEAP push fit connectors.!
FLEX doesn’t connect well with Push Fit connectors ( hence why we use Feral's ).
Lever operated Wago may perform better.
But Feral crimping is more acceptable.

Cheap push fit connectors are supplied with lights linked by OP and can be seen connected in one of the images. I'll eat my hat if ferrules have been used.

In this instance the push fit connectors have a button to release and are perfectly fine for use with flex - it's just that the connectors supplied with cheap light fittings can be hit and miss when it comes to gripping cable.

nicebutdim · Oct 14, 2023

mainline said:
PUSH WIRE® connector for junction boxes (773-104) | WAGO GB

PUSH WIRE® connector for junction boxes; for solid and stranded conductors; max. 2.5 mm²; 4-conductor; transparent housing; orange cover; Surrounding air temperature: max 60°C; 2,50 mm²; transparent (4044918397629) Online at WAGO GB!

www.wago.com

Wago 773 range isn't suitable for use with fine stranded cables.

Penguin · Oct 14, 2023

nicebutdim said:
Wago 773 range isn't suitable for use with fine stranded cables.

Thankyou nicebutdim,
I thought I was going mad.

And ferrules can be used with Wago connection units!

mainline · Oct 14, 2023

nicebutdim said:
Wago 773 range isn't suitable for use with fine stranded cables.

I don't think SY cable is classed as fine stranded.

Penguin · Oct 14, 2023

DPG said:
I've had far too many beers. Sorry.

Enjoy the beers and the Rugby.

Penguin · Oct 14, 2023

mainline said:
I don't think SY cable is classed as fine stranded.

I think we’re straying from the point.

Which was:- over engineering my cable choice from PVC or UPVC flex between a loft hinged access light fitting, 1 meter into a loft using 1.5 3c SY as the clients property had an infestation of 🐿

.

What would you guys have used???

thisisthecount · Oct 14, 2023

Penguin said:
Hi nicebutdim,
Please don’t use CHEAP push fit connectors.!
FLEX doesn’t connect well with Push Fit connectors ( hence why we use Feral's ).
Lever operated Wago may perform better.
But Feral crimping is more acceptable.

Ok but they actually came with that range ?