Fitting an LED Spot into a loft hatch?

[thisisthecount]

I'm looking to consider asking my electrician to fit one extra LED flush-fit spot in loft hatch so it matches the rows in the ceiling to a total of 9 (3 rows of 3). He's concerned that it won't be safe and I totally get this, but is there a way to install this with some form of strong, flexible 3-core cabling or technique? Just so when we use the hatch, its not going to cause issues?

 

[littlespark]

It’s possible.

A bit of flexi conduit should protect it… but it might be in the way when climbing the ladder.

What sort of downlights are they?

Some come with a separate driver that could sit in the roof space, and extend the ELV wire to the light.

 

[thisisthecount]

It’s possible.

A bit of flexi conduit should protect it… but it might be in the way when climbing the ladder.

What sort of downlights are they?

Some come with a separate driver that could sit in the roof space, and extend the ELV wire to the light.

well when it closes, its 100% flush with the ceiling and is the exact same paint finish with minimal trim. It will line up perfectly with the middle row. Is there any safe way of doing this? They are very very slim these spots, 30mm. THey don't have drivers, just on their own and one continuous loop.

these are the spots:

https://amzn.eu/d/fPTASVO

 

[DPG]

It's not some I'd do, but it's possible as above.

Can't you arrange the downlights so that you don't need one there?

 

[thisisthecount]

It's not some I'd do, but it's possible as above.

Can't you arrange the downlights so that you don't need one there?

bit late now, all drilled out and ready.... ;-(

 

[littlespark]

If it’s the ones hanging out the ceiling, then they seem very low profile… shouldn’t be a problem even with the ladder

 

[westward10]

If those are the final connections to those lights then the block connectors need enclosing and the cpcs correctly terminating.

 

[nicebutdim]

If those are the final connections to those lights then the block connectors need enclosing and the cpcs correctly terminating.

Incredible that this needs to be related to an electrician through their customer - especially given how easily conductors slip out of those cheap push fit connectors.

 

[davesparks]

A flex from a suitable JB to the light will be fine, I'd probably fit a bit of ply or something behind the light to prevent it getting kicked when the ladder is used.

Also coming here and pretending that this is the work of an electrician is just daft, we can all see that those connections are not the work of any qualified person.

 

[Penguin]

I'm looking to consider asking my electrician to fit one extra LED flush-fit spot in loft hatch so it matches the rows in the ceiling to a total of 9 (3 rows of 3). He's concerned that it won't be safe and I totally get this, but is there a way to install this with some form of strong, flexible 3-core cabling or technique? Just so when we use the hatch, its not going to cause issues?

We’ve had the same issue..!!!!

Firstly, ensure the circuit is RCD/O protected.

Secondly, we fitted a small ‘metal’ cage enclosure over the gubbins if the D/L showing between the loft steps.

Thirdly, we installed a double pole ‘Cabinet type Sw’ that isolated that individual DL when the Loft Lid was lowered.
(This was a FIXED loft access, not a floating loft lid).

The main issue however, WAS.!!! even though the power was ISO when the hatch was deployed and the cage was protecting the installation…. It proved a hazard when using the Loft Hatch Stairs…!!!!

We fed it with SY 1.5 3c…..

We returned 2 months later, to do more work, and on the request of the client, ended up fitting LED trip to ALL loft steps under edges , BUT EITHER side of the Hazard if the DL cage unit.

They’ve been happy and problem/ incident free,!!!!

ENSURE YOU MAKE A COMMENT on your Electrical Cert, regards possible Access, due to install, and additions to over come the issue.!

 

[MJPD29]

We’ve had the same issue..!!!!

Firstly, ensure the circuit is RCD/O protected.

Secondly, we fitted a small ‘metal’ cage enclosure over the gubbins if the D/L showing between the loft steps.

Thirdly, we installed a double pole ‘Cabinet type Sw’ that isolated that individual DL when the Loft Lid was lowered.
(This was a FIXED loft access, not a floating loft lid).

The main issue however, WAS.!!! even though the power was ISO when the hatch was deployed and the cage was protecting the installation…. It proved a hazard when using the Loft Hatch Stairs…!!!!

We fed it with SY 1.5 3c…..

We returned 2 months later, to do more work, and on the request of the client, ended up fitting LED trip to ALL loft steps under edges , BUT EITHER side of the Hazard if the DL cage unit.

They’ve been happy and problem/ incident free,!!!!

ENSURE YOU MAKE A COMMENT on your Electrical Cert, regards possible Access, due to install, and additions to over come the issue.!

You fed a downlight with sy? How did you terminate it?

 

[Penguin]

You fed a downlight with sy? How did you terminate it?

 

[thisisthecount]

Thanks this is all very useful and has helped me considerably

 

[pirate]

There are quite a few hinges which transfer the power supply, so maybe use on the loft hatch.
This is just one example of many, and some are from very reputable manufacturers.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Seco-Larm-SD-H412-Vandal-resistant-Protecting-Concealing/dp/B082BJBN26

 

[thisisthecount]

that's interesting, thank you!

 

[Penguin]

You fed a downlight with sy? How did you terminate it?

Whisk / stuffers / bandgo / wago.

As the loft hatch is moveable it requires more than just T&E.

 

[MJPD29]

Whisk / stuffers / bandgo / wago.

As the loft hatch is moveable it requires more than just T&E.

I would prefer flex in a domestic environment rather than sy which requires a proper brass gland to terminate and cores need sleeved. Using flex negates the need for both of these. The braid is utterly useless in this situation also.

 

[DPG]

Whisk / stuffers / bandgo / wago.

As the loft hatch is moveable it requires more than just T&E.

Not SY though surely. HO7 or pvc flex?

 

[westward10]

Of all flexible cords that come to mind SY must be the least flexible.

 

[Penguin]

Incredible that this needs to be related to an electrician through their customer - especially given how easily conductors slip out of those cheap push fit connectors.

Hi nicebutdim,
Please don’t use CHEAP push fit connectors.!
FLEX doesn’t connect well with Push Fit connectors ( hence why we use Feral's ).
Lever operated Wago may perform better.
But Feral crimping is more acceptable.

 

[DPG]

Hi nicebutdim,
Please don’t use CHEAP push fit connectors.!
FLEX doesn’t connect well with Push Fit connectors ( hence why we use Feral's ).
Lever operated Wago may perform better.
But Feral crimping is more acceptable.

You do realise there are push fit connectors that work with stranded cable right?

I'm sure nicebutdim does.

CAPS AND !!!! over the top punctuation here !!!!!

 

[Penguin]

Of all flexible cords that come to mind SY must be the least flexible.

SY gave the required mechanical protection of the movement from the loft hatch.!

20/25mm conduit wasn’t suitable in the space available.

Flex didn’t meet the mechanical movement of the operation of the loft access being operated over and over again. Also the fact that clumpy feet using the loaf steps made me want to possibly over engineer the requirement. Safety first.

 

[Penguin]

You do realise there are push fit connectors that work with stranded cable right?

I'm sure nicebutdim does.

CAPS AND !!!! over the top punctuation here !!!!!

Never wishing to offend, just to help.
But you did mention cheap push fits.

APOLOGISES.

 

[DPG]

Never wishing to offend, just to help.
But you did mention cheap push fits.

APOLOGISES.

I'm not sure I did. But fair enough.

 

[davesparks]

SY gave the required mechanical protection of the movement from the loft hatch.!

No it doesn't, SY is mechanically not very good at all. And for that apllication you need good flexibility which SY doesn't have.

Flex didn’t meet the mechanical movement of the operation of the loft access being operated over and over again.

Yes it does, it's flexible cable, the clue is in the name!

A decent rubber flex is far more suitable than SY, with the advantage that rubber flex will actually comply with UK product standards.

 

[mainline]

Hi nicebutdim,
Please don’t use CHEAP push fit connectors.!
FLEX doesn’t connect well with Push Fit connectors ( hence why we use Feral's ).
Lever operated Wago may perform better.
But Feral crimping is more acceptable.

Ferrules shouldn't be used for push fit connectors.

 

[Penguin]

No it doesn't, SY is mechanically not very good at all. And for that apllication you need good flexibility which SY doesn't have.


Yes it does, it's flexible cable, the clue is in the name!

A decent rubber flex is far more suitable than SY, with the advantage that rubber flex will actually comply with UK product standards.

On my first original inspection of the loft I noticed a number of mice and squirrel 🐿 traps.
There was evidence of 🐿 activity, so for that reason I over engineered the materials used.

I’m grateful for the lesson, and now understand that Flex, is flexible.

But possibly not as 🐿 tolerant as SY.

Would you agree?

 

[Penguin]

You do realise there are push fit connectors that work with stranded cable right?

I'm sure nicebutdim does.

CAPS AND !!!! over the top punctuation here !!!!!

Please send me a picture of a Push Fit connection unit, that used use with stranded flex.

 

[mainline]

On my first original inspection of the loft I noticed a number of mice and squirrel 🐿 traps.
There was evidence of 🐿 activity, so for that reason I over engineered the materials used.

I’m grateful for the lesson, and now understand that Flex, is flexible.

But possibly not as 🐿 tolerant as SY.

Would you agree?

SY cable is not suitable in fixed wiring applications that require compliance with British Standard 7671.

 

[DPG]

Please send me a picture of a Push Fit connection unit, that used use with stranded flex.

I've had far too many beers. Sorry.

 

[mainline]

Please send me a picture of a Push Fit connection unit, that used use with stranded flex.

PUSH WIRE® connector for junction boxes (773-104) | WAGO GB

PUSH WIRE® connector for junction boxes; for solid and stranded conductors; max. 2.5 mm²; 4-conductor; transparent housing; orange cover; Surrounding air temperature: max 60°C; 2,50 mm²; multicoloured (4044918397629) Online at WAGO GB!

www.wago.com

 

[DPG]

PUSH WIRE® connector for junction boxes (773-104) | WAGO GB

PUSH WIRE® connector for junction boxes; for solid and stranded conductors; max. 2.5 mm²; 4-conductor; transparent housing; orange cover; Surrounding air temperature: max 60°C; 2,50 mm²; multicoloured (4044918397629) Online at WAGO GB!

www.wago.com

I think we're being trolled. Having said that I've had a few ales. But I can still punctuate with the best of them. Hurrah.

I'm fact, I'm an assesor of beer drinking. Cheers! Beer.

 

[Penguin]

SY cable is not suitable in fixed wiring applications that require compliance with British Standard 7671.

Correct, but there is movement, and not a fixed application.

 

[nicebutdim]

Hi nicebutdim,
Please don’t use CHEAP push fit connectors.!
FLEX doesn’t connect well with Push Fit connectors ( hence why we use Feral's ).
Lever operated Wago may perform better.
But Feral crimping is more acceptable.

Cheap push fit connectors are supplied with lights linked by OP and can be seen connected in one of the images. I'll eat my hat if ferrules have been used.

In this instance the push fit connectors have a button to release and are perfectly fine for use with flex - it's just that the connectors supplied with cheap light fittings can be hit and miss when it comes to gripping cable.

 

[nicebutdim]

PUSH WIRE® connector for junction boxes (773-104) | WAGO GB

PUSH WIRE® connector for junction boxes; for solid and stranded conductors; max. 2.5 mm²; 4-conductor; transparent housing; orange cover; Surrounding air temperature: max 60°C; 2,50 mm²; multicoloured (4044918397629) Online at WAGO GB!

www.wago.com

Wago 773 range isn't suitable for use with fine stranded cables.

 

[Penguin]

Wago 773 range isn't suitable for use with fine stranded cables.

Thankyou nicebutdim,
I thought I was going mad.

And ferrules can be used with Wago connection units!

 

[mainline]

Wago 773 range isn't suitable for use with fine stranded cables.

I don't think SY cable is classed as fine stranded.

 

[Penguin]

I've had far too many beers. Sorry.

Enjoy the beers and the Rugby.

 

[Penguin]

I don't think SY cable is classed as fine stranded.

I think we’re straying from the point.

Which was:- over engineering my cable choice from PVC or UPVC flex between a loft hinged access light fitting, 1 meter into a loft using 1.5 3c SY as the clients property had an infestation of 🐿.

What would you guys have used???

 

[thisisthecount]

Hi nicebutdim,
Please don’t use CHEAP push fit connectors.!
FLEX doesn’t connect well with Push Fit connectors ( hence why we use Feral's ).
Lever operated Wago may perform better.
But Feral crimping is more acceptable.

Ok but they actually came with that range ?

 

[mainline]

Thankyou nicebutdim,
I thought I was going mad.

And ferrules can be used with Wago connection units!

The indents left by the crimping tool on the ferrule could catch on the leaf spring and cause it to get stuck.

Using boot lace ferrules creates a highly loaded point of conduction in the clamp. This both reduces the current carrying capacity and potentially increase the chance of a poor contact if oxidised. Cage clamp terminals are designed to encourage wrap of the stripped bare cables around the internal clamp contact. This increases the contact area considerably.

 

[Penguin]

The indents left by the crimping tool on the ferrule could catch on the leaf spring and cause it to get stuck.

Using boot lace ferrules creates a highly loaded point of conduction in the clamp. This both reduces the current carrying capacity and potentially increase the chance of a poor contact if oxidised. Cage clamp terminals are designed to encourage wrap of the stripped bare cables around the internal clamp contact. This increases the contact area considerably.

 

[Penguin]

The indents left by the crimping tool on the ferrule could catch on the leaf spring and cause it to get stuck.

Using boot lace ferrules creates a highly loaded point of conduction in the clamp. This both reduces the current carrying capacity and potentially increase the chance of a poor contact if oxidised. Cage clamp terminals are designed to encourage wrap of the stripped bare cables around the internal clamp contact. This increases the contact area considerably.

I welcome your response, but as a 3c 1.5 flex has over 20+ individual strands within each core, it’s often very awkward to guarantee a sound connection with these lever type push in connections, especially if your daisy chaining 2 inputs on each lever for L N CpC.

As we all know, just one of those annoying strands can split away/across and arc.

Also, you can’t guarantee that the entire twisted strand has fully entered the lever enclosure and not just crumpled up inside.

A further question I’d ask you, is

For what reason we’re Ferrels introduced to the electrical industry.???

 

[Penguin]

I think we're being trolled. Having said that I've had a few ales. But I can still punctuate with the best of them. Hurrah.

I'm fact, I'm an assesor of beer drinking. Cheers! Beer.

 

[westward10]

Ferrule, it's ferrule.

 

[Penguin]

Ferrule, it's ferrule.

Ferrule, it's ferrule.

Why are ferrules used.?

What purpose do they have ?

 

[nicebutdim]

I don't think SY cable is classed as fine stranded.

Coarse stranded (class 2) cables are the only stranded cables suitable for use with the 773 range.

SY is fine stranded (class 5) and not suitable for use with that range of connectors.

It doesn't matter what we think, the manufacturer is clear on this point.

 

[Penguin]

Coarse stranded (class 2) cables are the only stranded cables suitable for use with the 773 range.

SY is fine stranded (class 5) and not suitable for use with that range of connectors.

It doesn't matter what we think, the manufacturer is clear on this point.

Very well explained nicebutdim,

Now as much as I enjoyed solder tipping (NOT), I’d rather ferrule and terminate in a ferrule approved connection unit.

OR just hope that by twisting the strands will hopefully be adequate to shove into a lever type block.! And hope for the best.!

 

[nicebutdim]

Very well explained nicebutdim,

Now as much as I enjoyed solder tipping (NOT), I’d rather ferrule and terminate in a ferrule approved connection unit.

OR just hope that by twisting the strands will hopefully be adequate to shove into a lever type block.! And hope for the best.!

Wago lever connectors are fine for used with fine stranded conductors and are designed to apply constant tension without damage to those conductors.

 

[davesparks]

On my first original inspection of the loft I noticed a number of mice and squirrel 🐿 traps.
There was evidence of 🐿 activity, so for that reason I over engineered the materials used.

I’m grateful for the lesson, and now understand that Flex, is flexible.

But possibly not as 🐿 tolerant as SY.

Would you agree?

If there is rodent activity then what is required first is pest control.

SY is not in any way rodent proof!

The only wiring systems which are truly rodent proof are steel conduit and MICC.
SWA is fairly rodent resistant but they can still damage the outer sheath which can be an issue if any moisture gets into the armour.