NICEIC Certification Scheme 2391 V NICEIC - Whats the point in 2391??

[Andy78]

Fair comment. It also doesn't state that you even need to be an electrician. I think that if you applied, things may get a bit more rigorous. I may be wrong, and a painter and decorator who wired his moms extension may be able to join. I hope not!!

You are labouring under delusions of an industry that has leading schemes that are out to protect standards over profit.

As soon as part P was brought out opportunities were spotted by the new CPS schemes and training centres to enroll the likes of plumbers and other trades into the schemes.
This evolved into the short course training route which is now actively encouraged and aided by the likes of the NICEIC to churn through applicants in a few weeks to swell the ranks of the schemes in return for membership fees. This was aided by the aforementioned low entry requirements.

 

[Steve Bramah]

Ok, guys, this is my first time on this site, and i have learned that qualifications have been overuled by the "competent persons scheme"
I have been in this industry for 44 years and i am still learning today.
I have virtually every qualification necessary for me to carry out my field of work, plus a couple i don't need, but they are all irrelevant.
I don't feel that my 44 years can give anything to this site, as you all cry "competent person". A short lived relationship, but i won't be back, but thanks to Westwood for backing up my statement about Elecsa requirements.

 

[Andy78]

Ok, guys, this is my first time on this site, and i have learned that qualifications have been overuled by the "competent persons scheme"
I have been in this industry for 44 years and i am still learning today.
I have virtually every qualification necessary for me to carry out my field of work, plus a couple i don't need, but they are all irrelevant.
I don't feel that my 44 years can give anything to this site, as you all cry "competent person". A short lived relationship, but i won't be back, but thanks to Westwood for backing up my statement about Elecsa requirements.

Nobody here has said that. You suggested it once though.

 

[Rpa07]

I’ve been in the garden all day - did I miss anything?

 

[Des 56]

Steve,would you prefer responses that simply agree in all aspects with your views ?

Taking your ball and running because fellow sparks have different attitudes

There may be more cynical opinion of the schemes than what you experience but the well being of our trade is uppermost in all contributors

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Ok, guys, this is my first time on this site, and i have learned that qualifications have been overuled by the "competent persons scheme"
I have been in this industry for 44 years and i am still learning today.
I have virtually every qualification necessary for me to carry out my field of work, plus a couple i don't need, but they are all irrelevant.
I don't feel that my 44 years can give anything to this site, as you all cry "competent person". A short lived relationship, but i won't be back, but thanks to Westwood for backing up my statement about Elecsa requirements.

All you need to do is get your facts straight.
People were Inspecting and Testing installations a long time before the 2391 was a twinkle in someone’s eye.
To suggest that a qualified electrician can’t Inspect and test their own work is a joke.
Failure to do so would be a non-compliance with BS7671.
As for the Competent Person Schemes, Inspection and Testing is not covered by Part P, so there is no requirement for anyone registering with such a scheme to hold the 2391 qualification.

 

[Dillb]

Ok, guys, this is my first time on this site, and i have learned that qualifications have been overuled by the "competent persons scheme"
I have been in this industry for 44 years and i am still learning today.
I have virtually every qualification necessary for me to carry out my field of work, plus a couple i don't need, but they are all irrelevant.
I don't feel that my 44 years can give anything to this site, as you all cry "competent person". A short lived relationship, but i won't be back, but thanks to Westwood for backing up my statement about Elecsa requirements.

Why announce it, why not just leave and never post again? Or you expecting everyone to ask you to stay?

 

[Steve Bramah]

Perhaps I should clarify my opinion of fully qualified? Someone who holds 236-1/2 (yes I’m old enough to date your nan lol) hold the 17th edition update (everyone has this right ?) as well as being time served with enough experience to hold a JIB Approved Electrician card as a minimum.
While those who don’t have the above are likely to get all out of shape (tea/cake stop imminent).
Let me ask you this? If you were paying for an electrician to work on you house wouldn’t you want them to be able to demonstrate their competence to do so with recognised qualifications, competence & experience (they don’t give away JIB Approved Electrician status do they?) together with accountability should anything happen?
I'm glad I'm not the only one on here with 236 parts 1 & 2.
I joined Elecsa, just to get Building control off my back, and that ain't cheap. Been at this for 44 years and never stop learning.

Do I agree with the scams? Absolutely not! At. 54 I don’t profess to know it all... far from it, but as an Approved Electrician with both 236-1/2, 2400, 2391, 2382, 2377.
I fail to see why I’m forced to subscribe to play their game so as to be seen able & above board to trade as an “Approved Comtractor”

Why do I? Because I’m able to charge a premium as well as choosing the jobs I prefer...to a large degree.

As anyone can be a busy fool! So why not make your time as profitable as possible.

 

[ipf]

Steve, just a question. Having been in the trade for 44 years, how long have you been a scam member?

 

[JAWS]

Steve you sound very similar to the poster amptramp who posted yesterday, similarities are very similar.

 

[Andy78]

Why announce it, why not just leave and never post again? Or you expecting everyone to ask you to stay?

It's called a flounce

Urban Dictionary: Flounce - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Flounce

 

[Steve Bramah]

Steve,would you prefer responses that simply agree in all aspects with your views ?

Taking your ball and running because fellow sparks have different attitudes

There may be more cynical opinion of the schemes than what you experience but the well being of our trade is uppermost in all contributors

Hi Des, there is a saying in our industry that "no 2 sparks work alike".
Everyone has their own interpretation of regs etc, but facts are facts. My main point was that you cannot enrol with either Elecsa or NIC without 2391 or equivalent. In the end, one of the guys, who is a QS but without 2391, admitted it was a requirement.
I am not one for taking my ball home, because i enjoy debate, and my opinion is not necessarily fact, but when i state a fact, i usually have something to back it up. I don't --------. I don't need to.
I have been in this industry a lot longer than most, so experience must count for something......so long as its not overuled by the "competent person scheme"!

 

[Steve Bramah]

Steve, just a question. Having been in the trade for 44 years, how long have you been a scam member?

??

 

[Andy78]

Hi Des, there is a saying in our industry that "no 2 sparks work alike".
Everyone has their own interpretation of regs etc, but facts are facts. My main point was that you cannot enrol with either Elecsa or NIC without 2391 or equivalent. In the end, one of the guys, who is a QS but without 2391, admitted it was a requirement.
I am not one for taking my ball home, because i enjoy debate, and my opinion is not necessarily fact, but when i state a fact, i usually have something to back it up. I don't ********. I don't need to.
I have been in this industry a lot longer than most, so experience must count for something......so long as its not overuled by the "competent person scheme"!

The 2391 is not a requirement for membership of elecsa or the niceic that I know of unless you can back that up with some facts.

I know of many that are QS without the 2391. You can contact schemes for their individual requirements of this.

Your experience counts for a lot, just as some without specific qualifications would hope that their lengthy experience would count for something with regard to testing and inspection.

Glad you stayed for the debate. This is a great forum with many experienced and like minded people, the majority of which are for the upkeep and improvement of standards in our industry.

 

[Steve Bramah]

The 2391 is not a requirement for membership of elecsa or the niceic that I know of unless you can back that up with some facts.

I know of many that are QS without the 2391. You can contact schemes for their individual requirements of this.

Your experience counts for a lot, just as some without specific qualifications would hope that their lengthy experience would count for something with regard to testing and inspection.

Glad you stayed for the debate. This is a great forum with many experienced and like minded people, the majority of which are for the upkeep and improvement of standards in our industry.

Thanks for your comments Andy. I am an Elecsa member, and one of the first requirements was 2391. Enough said!

 

[Andy78]

Thanks for your comments Andy. I am an Elecsa member, and one of the first requirements was 2391. Enough said!

I used to be an Elecsa member and they never asked about 2391. Enough said ?

 

[Dillb]

I don't feel that my 44 years can give anything to this site, as you all cry "competent person". A short lived relationship, but i won't be back, but thanks to Westwood for backing up my statement about Elecsa requirements.

That lasted along time

Thanks for your comments Andy. I am an Elecsa member, and one of the first requirements was 2391. Enough said!

 

[Steve Bramah]

I used to be an Elecsa member and they never asked about 2391. Enough said ?

Just taken these requirements off NICEIC site:
Scheme Requirements:-

To apply for our Domestic Installer scheme you will need:

• Confirmation of Public Liability insurance to at least £2m
• Certificates of technical qualifications achieved by the Qualified Supervisor
• Hold a current edition of BS 7671 and any other technical reference guides suitable for the work you usually undertake
• Test equipment in good working order and calibrated
• 1 installation sites where you have recently completed and certificated the work

 

[Steve Bramah]

Get your facts right, i was told. I don't think that they are going to ask if you are a member of the Tufty club, or you have a Blue Peter badge!

 

[123]

Just taken these requirements off NICEIC site:
Scheme Requirements:-

To apply for our Domestic Installer scheme you will need:

• Confirmation of Public Liability insurance to at least £2m
• Certificates of technical qualifications achieved by the Qualified Supervisor
• Hold a current edition of BS 7671 and any other technical reference guides suitable for the work you usually undertake
• Test equipment in good working order and calibrated
• 1 installation sites where you have recently completed and certificated the work

Where do they state 2391 on that?

I think they will accept your cycling proficiency test as long as the cheque clears.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Just taken these requirements off NICEIC site:
Scheme Requirements:-

To apply for our Domestic Installer scheme you will need:

• Confirmation of Public Liability insurance to at least £2m
• Certificates of technical qualifications achieved by the Qualified Supervisor
• Hold a current edition of BS 7671 and any other technical reference guides suitable for the work you usually undertake
• Test equipment in good working order and calibrated
• 1 installation sites where you have recently completed and certificated the work

Is this like how some electricians interpret the Regs?
It’s not there, so just make it up?

 

[Midwest]

Thanks for your comments Andy. I am an Elecsa member, and one of the first requirements was 2391. Enough said!

I am also an Elecsa member, have been for the last 5 years. I do not have the 2391. I only have the 2392. Rightly or wrongly, they have found that a suitable qualification.

On the application form, there's a drop down box to select the QS's highest qualification. The 2391 is not there, nor even the 2392. There is a whole host of other qualifications, including 'C&G Inspect & Test, 16th & 18th', but nothing about the 2391.

ELECSA Contactor's Area - http://www.elecsa.co.uk/applications/application/partPmicrogen.aspx

 

[ipf]

??

What's up?...nothing strange. You say you're an Elecsa member, I'm only asking when you became a member and if you were a member of another scheme previously. If so, since when? Did you join up for Part P purposes? If you don't want to answer, fair enough.

 

[UNG]

I seem to recall I got my JIB Approved Electrician status from Electrician, by passing a multiple choice exam in the late 1970's.

I seem to recall there being a full written exam as well

Hi Andy, you may be able blag your way through filling in a certificate, but without scheme membership, or qualification, no-one will accept it . Building control aren't going to accept a cert from a non qualified person, and insurance companies will just send it back without a scheme membership number.

I've done it quite a few times with insurance companies and even with building control. Most of the people asking for an NIC certificate haven't got a clue of what they are asking for and more to the point I don't think the NICEIC assess the competence of a contractor to inspect and test only to install to BS7671

Hi Andy, so what you are saying, is that because you are a qualified electrician, you are automatically entitled to fill in a cert to cover the work you have undertaken. Why do you think that BS2391 was introduced? Its a level above 1st and 2nd fix installation. To gain 2391, you need to be able to understand the readings that your test equipment has just given you. You need to be able to correlate the readings, to what might be expected. I'm not trying to decry people from thinking that sparks should be confident in what they have installed, but 2391 gives you lots of mathematical equasions that can qualify your readings. Its not that simple. Thats why 2391 exists!

I know of a few colleges where some lecturers based the 2391 course wholly on past exam papers and the lecturers principle was if you learnt enough questions and answers you would get beyond the pass level.
The equations you talk about would they be the same equations you learn while learning to become an electrician as I don't remember any specific I&T equations

Hi, have you ever submitted a certificate to Building control or an Insurance company, under your own name?

Yes I have to a number of insurance companies

Fair comment. Try joinin NIC or Elecsa without it.

Can't think of any reason to join either scam

Hi Andy, NIC, Elecsa and ECA are now owned by Certsure. If you hold 2391, this proves your ability to test and inspect. I don't think having a 17th edition qualification would hack it in court.

The ECA isn't owned by Certsure. The Electrical Contractors Association is a limited company with it's own directors, the ECA is also one of the directors of Certsure LLP

 

[Midwest]

I seem to recall there being a full written exam as well

Nope. Memory is a bit hazy, but did my apprenticeship for Electrician (Installation), with the various exams etc. But was asked if 'we' wanted to do exam for 'Approved' status as an add on to the course. And it was multi choice. Can't prove it, but don't remember doing written exam for Approved.

 

[MFS Electrical]

Just to be clear the NIC aren't the only scheme:

Napit
Stroma
BSI
Elecsa (NIC)
NIC

.....

Try telling that to local councils. Especially here in Scotland where Select is more prevalent

 

[123]

And in this area in Northern Ireland, NIC EIC Approved Contractor is required when it comes to Housing Exec Work, or Entertainment Licences. Neither of which pay very well at all when all is said and done.