Should a completion certificate always be given for works carried out please?

[vanessap]

Hi Everyone,

I had a new consumer unit installed in December 2021, the electrician said that he had more testing to complete and would come back and said it could wait. My oven also began tripping on the same day, which he felt was a faulty oven.

I asked to schedule for a few months and unfortunately due to my mother’s Alzheimer’s care need access became difficult.

Things have calmed down and for the last few months I’ve been trying to arrange for the works to be completed and a certificate given. I met with the electrician / plumbing company last week who has been very difficult about providing most of the documentation; most of it has now been provided.

He has said that for the consumer unit installed at my home there is no continuity on a ring circuit and that he will not provide a completion certificate until it is addressed. Keeping in mind I have been asking him to explain the outcome and remedy any works.

I have contacted several other electricians who have said they can address this but cannot sign off the consumer unit and have advised that a completion certificate should have been provided noting the issue.

Please can I ask for your advice? Can a completion certificate be provided just noting the issues so someone else can come in?

Is no continuity in a ring circuit very dangerous?

The electrician is NICEIC registered, might you know if it is outlined that certification of works should be provided?

Surely if it’s not then unsafe work is not accounted for, if this fault is unsafe?

Thank you so much, in advance. Any advice would be really appreciated.

Many thanks,
Vanessa

 

[westward10]

Why don't they come and address it?
As from your previous thread most electricians will carry out some testing prior to a consumer unit change and this would have highlighted the issue. Tell them that if the issue is not resolved you will take the matter up with the NICEIC.

 

[timhoward]

He has said that for the consumer unit installed at my home there is not continuity on a ring circuit and that he will not provide a completion certificate until it is addressed

This should have been determined before the consumer unit was changed, and a strategy agreed with you.

I have contacted several other electricians who have said they can address this but cannot sign off the consumer unit and have advised that a completion certificate should have been provided noting the issue.

Please can I ask for your advice?

The original electrician will be well aware that there are various ways to resolve this situation, ranging from full diagnosis and repair to less favourable (but compliant) workarounds that are quicker and easier. There's no excuse for changing a consumer unit, reconnecting a broken circuit, and running away saying testing and certification can wait.

 

[westward10]

Can you show a pic of the consumer unit and assuming you know point out which circuit it is.

 

[Dustydazzler]

A sparks can't issue a EIC with faults in the circuit ( lack of end to end continuity )

Either the ring needs sorting out or a quick fix would be to make it a 20a radial

either way the original sparks needs to come back or you can get another sparks to do the work , but either way the first lot of work can not be classes as finished / signed off until the issue is resolved

 

[vanessap]

Thank you all so much for your thoughts! Yes, I can definitely share some photos later today, though I don’t know which circuit is faulty. I have an idea of what area of the house.

I have been told by another electrician who is potentially going to remediate the work that a completion certificate can be provided with explanation that the ring circuit has not got continuity with a recommendation for the works to be done; might you know if this is correct?

Can I also ask if you might know if a DEIC should note if a junction box is not properly earthed? This is a separate question for the DEIC that was given for my mum’s home. I did also ask about the earthing they said it was earthed but they were unable to find the source.

Sorry for all of the questions, I need to put my mum’s home on the market for her care costs. I am trying to make improvements and update her home but hitting brick walls when I ask this company questions. Big learning lesson.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Vanessa

 

[timhoward]

I have been told by another electrician who is potentially going to remediate the work that a completion certificate can be provided with explanation that the ring circuit has not got continuity with a recommendation for the works to be done; might you know if this is correct?

As a lack of continuity of a ring final circuit is deemed "potentially dangerous", an installation certificate saying the installation complies with BS7671 can't be issued with the fault still present.
However another electrician could find and fix the problem and complete an EICR which would give you peace of mind that things are safe.

 

[Dustydazzler]

In most stituations like this I reckon most sparks would put both legs into a 20a MCB and just treat it like a bunch radial

 

[vanessap]

Hi Everyone, Thank you so much for your advise. Here are some photos attached:

I have spoken to another electrician today and he has said that it would be possible for the previous electrician to give a certificate saying that the consumer unit has been installed but highlight that the electrics are unsafe due to the lack of ring continuity which must be addressed.

Might you know if this is correct please? I am asking so I have an idea of what to say to the electrician who installed the consumer unit. I really don't feel comfortable asking any longer for him to correct the faults as I have been asking for the certificate for months and was under the impression that it was just a faulty oven. He told me last week that it was to do with a lack of ring continuity. I have contacted NICEIC who have recommended that I make a complaint so they can investigate, as the unit was installed December 2021 and there is still no certificate. I have shared this with the electrician who seems concerned now.

Other electricians have said that they could to a EICR report for £165.00 to diagnose the problem and resolve it but it would not cover the consumer unit.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Vanessa

 

[westward10]

That black flexible conduit going into the bottom of it is dangerous there are wires exposed what a lash up, I would be sending a pic of that to the NICEIC if they have acknowledged your complaint.
Seems like you have used someone with little skill or competence which probably explains why they have not resolved the fault, they don't know how to.

 

[vanessap]

That black flexible conduit going into the bottom of it is dangerous there are wires exposed what a lash up, I would be sending a pic of that to the NICEIC if they have acknowledged your complaint.
Seems like you have used someone with little skill or competence which probably explains why they have not resolved the fault, they don't know how to.

Thank you for explaining this @westward10 I also wondered about this, my mum has Alzheimer's and often walks around touching things. I have asked them to return on so many occasions and honestly would like to find a way to receive a certificate until their point of work if its needed and then find someone else to come in who is going to do a safe job

 

[westward10]

To be honest they shouldn't really supply a Certificate that it is non compliant works. I would be sending that pic to the NICEIC.

 

[Dustydazzler]

No wonder the bloke don't want to put his name to that board , its gash

to be honest it was fitted in 2021, I would give up with the sparks who fitted it as clearly he don't give a sh!t

get a someone different in to sort it out

 

[vanessap]

Thank you all so much!

I thought to ask the electrician to cover the cost of an EICR with another qualified electrician who I have found and cover the costs of the remedial works myself. I don't know if they will pay but they seem worried about a complaint to the NICEIC.

Do you think this sounds fair?

Also do you know if the NICEIC take these kinds of complaints seriously please?

Many thanks,
Vanessa

 

[littlespark]

As the great Dr Sam Beckett once said:- “oh boy!”


I just don’t understand how it could be so wrong.

20mm flexi conduit …… 20mm hole….. It’s not difficult.

The NICEIC will probably tell you to get the electrician back in the first instance to rectify…. But 9/10 of these cases, I doubt the homeowner wants these cowboys anywhere near.

I’d hate to see what inside the board looks like.

 

[timhoward]

I wonder if there were singles in the white oval conduit in the first place...difficult to see.
But why on earth he didn't find a way to run behind the board and in from the back is beyond me.

 

[littlespark]

I wonder if there were singles in the white oval conduit in the first place...difficult to see.
But why on earth he didn't find a way to run behind the board and in from the back is beyond me.

White oval conduit???

Oh my God! that's even worse!

 

[oscar21]

BG boards always say bodger, I fitted two in my life when they first came out, never again, out of two boards and 4 RCD's 2 were faulty and didn't trip, even with the test button pressed and on top of that the lid was such a pain in the arse to get on I could have fitted a whole new board in the time it took me to get it on.

Edit: looks like they are still hard to get the lid on, the right hand screw isn't done up. Also what are singles doing in oval conduit anyway, that looks like someone has drilled through the cable/conduit and done a quick repair, maybe it was done after the mains unit was fitted, cant believe someone who fits consumer units has done that, even a cowboy.

 

[westward10]

BG boards always say bodger, I fitted two in my life when they first came out, never again, out of two boards and 4 RCD's 2 were faulty and didn't trip, even with the test button pressed and on top of that the lid was such a pain in the arse to get on I could have fitted a whole new board in the time it took me to get it on.

Edit: looks like they are still hard to get the lid on, the right hand screw isn't done up. Also what are singles doing in oval conduit anyway, that looks like someone has drilled through the cable/conduit and done a quick repair, maybe it was done after the mains unit was fitted, cant believe someone who fits consumer units has done that, even a cowboy.

"BG boards always say bodger, I have fitted two in my life". See how that reads
You can get oval to round adaptors and it can be used for singles.

You are being redirected...

 

[oscar21]

"BG boards always say bodger, I have fitted two in my life". See how that reads
You can get oval to round adaptors and it can be used for singles.

You are being redirected...

That's before I knew they were a bodgers board. when they first come out in Screwfix they were £50 inc VAT and were very heavy so they felt like a decent board for the money, we got two as we had two jobs to do both requiring mains units. The first one when we tested it failed the RCD test so I nicked one out of the other board and took that back as faulty. when we fitted the replacement board on the second job that had a faulty RCD as well.

whenever I see one now that has recently been fitted they never have things like the grommet strip installed or a tails gland, they are all fitted crooked and a mess inside. I asked if they got many back as faulty, no they said, I'm probably the only one that tests RCD's then on boards like that.

 

[littlespark]

I asked if they got many back as faulty, no they said, I'm probably the only one that tests RCD's then on boards like that.

Or, the two faulty ones you experienced came from the same batch…. The majority could be 99% perfect.

Any manufacturer could have a dodgy batch.

You can’t say other electricians don’t do tests just because of that


I remember several years ago, one particular size of one particular brand of mcb had a callback, and I had to check every static caravan we had sold in the previous 2 years, count them up, order replacements from each caravan manufacturer that used that make of mcb, swap them out and send the recalled ones back.

 

[westward10]

Let's not sidetrack this.

 

[James]

From a picture of the outside, I make these assumptions. (they may not be correct)

If it looks like "poo" from the outside, it is probably worse on the inside.
Single insulated cables outside the board are a big red flag to me.

Keep pushing the NICEIC for a resolution, I would be ashamed of myself even if I did that as a temporary lash up to get something up and running in the short term.

 

[Dumb founded]

First of all the manufacturer of the dis board should not even come into this conversation. There is nothing wrong with the manufacturer, but as previously mentioned it’s the installer. The copex beggars belief and shows real initiative.. but it’s woeful. It looks harder to come up with that idea than infact, do it properly. As previously said, an eicr is usually carried out before the board is replaced to highlight any problems and they should be remedied prior to replacing. I wonder why he recommends a further eicr in 2 years?? I think the sticker reads that anyway? But this is the recommendation of the electrician based on the type and use of the installation as well as other factors. There are ways around your issues as people have mentioned. Get a registered electrician to carry out an eicr and remedy the problems. Ok… you may have to pay extra and you may say that the bodge job should be remedied by the cowboy that did it… but.. why would you want them back? Contacting the niceic is an option but, they will tell you to contact the electrician first and give them the opportunity to remedy the work. Let’s be honest…. Do they really care…they get the registration payment from said electrician annually so probably won’t care. Things like this happen all the time.. the amount of phone calls I get when customers say they have had an extension or a mains change and require it signing off and the sparky has done one is unreal. Thankfully most building control authorities are aware of this and will accept an eicr. As previously said.. an electrician will not sign off anyone else’s work… or I certainly wouldn’t. Hope you get sorted.

 

[vanessap]

Hi Everyone,

Thank you all so so much for your thoughts and advice! I met with a really helpful NAPIT registered Electrician today, honestly his approach was almost like night and day in comparison. He visited both my mum's home and mine today:

At my mum's: He tested the junction box, he found the earth issue and discover that there were two spurs running off the cooker cable (sorry if I am saying thing incorrectly). He opened up the wooden flooring on the floor above to figure out how to rewire and bring a further cable down to make things safe and came up with a plan to remove all the trunking. Add new and chase new sockets and two light switches. He resolved the cable issue in the loft after testing and coupling them up differently.

At my home: He checked every single socket, changed out three faulty sockets, resolved the issue with the oven from this, narrowed the ring issue down to a cable under the floorboards in the living room.

I am a bit in awe of today.

He will be doing the works at my mum's home later this week.

He mentioned one thing that I hoped I could ask some advice on please. He had a look at the consumer unit that was installed at my home and explained that in the picture attached:

1. The cable thicknesses are incorrect as they are too small
2. The trunking has not been installed correctly

We agreed that he would resolve the fault with the ring continuity and that I would then request the final certificate from the previous electrician and he will provide me with a certificate for the works he has done.

I wanted to ask your thoughts on 1 and 2 in the image and if this is something that I should ask the first Electrician to make right before providing the consumer unit certificate they installed or if it would be okay to ask this Electrician. Or can the cable thicknesses stay as it is?

Thank you all so much for your time and advice, many many thanks, Vanessa

 

[timhoward]

Glad you are getting somewhere. You don't want the first guy back.

1. The cable thicknesses are incorrect as they are too small
2. The trunking has not been installed correctly

We agreed that he would resolve the fault with the ring continuity and that I would then request the final certificate from the previous electrician and he will provide me with a certificate for the works he has done.

I wanted to ask your thoughts on 1 and 2 in the image and if this is something that I should ask the first Electrician to make right before providing the consumer unit certificate they installed or if it would be okay to ask this Electrician. Or can the cable thicknesses stay as it is?

1 - difficult to say, depends on a few factors like main fuse size and earthing type, but based on what you've said I'd be inclined to trust him to sort out anything he reckons needs doing. It doesn't look to be a big job to fit a new tail set. (I'm hopeless at judging cable sizes from photo's, someone else might be able to be more specific)

2 - He's definitely right, this is what a few of us were remarking on earlier in the thread. Depending on where that is going and what it's doing there are likely several better ways of installing that, probably without the flexible conduit at all.

 

[ipf]

Hi Everyone,

Thank you all so so much for your thoughts and advice! I met with a really helpful NAPIT registered Electrician today, honestly his approach was almost like night and day in comparison. He visited both my mum's home and mine today:

At my mum's: He tested the junction box, he found the earth issue and discover that there were two spurs running off the cooker cable (sorry if I am saying thing incorrectly). He opened up the wooden flooring on the floor above to figure out how to rewire and bring a further cable down to make things safe and came up with a plan to remove all the trunking. Add new and chase new sockets and two light switches. He resolved the cable issue in the loft after testing and coupling them up differently.

At my home: He checked every single socket, changed out three faulty sockets, resolved the issue with the oven from this, narrowed the ring issue down to a cable under the floorboards in the living room.

I am a bit in awe of today.

He will be doing the works at my mum's home later this week.

He mentioned one thing that I hoped I could ask some advice on please. He had a look at the consumer unit that was installed at my home and explained that in the picture attached:

1. The cable thicknesses are incorrect as they are too small
2. The trunking has not been installed correctly

We agreed that he would resolve the fault with the ring continuity and that I would then request the final certificate from the previous electrician and he will provide me with a certificate for the works he has done.

I wanted to ask your thoughts on 1 and 2 in the image and if this is something that I should ask the first Electrician to make right before providing the consumer unit certificate they installed or if it would be okay to ask this Electrician. Or can the cable thicknesses stay as it is?

Thank you all so much for your time and advice, many many thanks, Vanessa

It's good to see a bit of positive news.
It seems you have someone who knows what they're doing involved.
Regarding I and 2 in the image, go with the advice of your electrician on site....he's seen things first hand.
Don't presume all NICEIC registered are bad and NAPIT the opposite. Both are money making organisations with a purpose to serve. Although standards have declined, in general, it seems you picked a bad un, initially.
Was it a cheap installation?
Hope for a satisfactory conclusion.

PS. That pvc conduit is a true shocker.......both ends.
Wiska box and 2 glands or white pvc conduit, easy to sort.
Judging cable size from photos is pure guesswork.

 

[timhoward]

I'd be looking at where the conduit goes. It might be to a socket underneath, in which case a new length of cable all the way to the CU, entering behind it might be the best option. But from the sounds of it the latest guy knows his stuff and I would guess he'll assess things and give some options.

 

[vanessap]

Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to thank you all for your amazing advice and support! Yesterday I received the building regulations certificate for my mum's home and the electrician did a job with her kitchen. There is also some headway on my home.

Thank you!
Vanessa