Cost of a 4kw solar system

[Worcester]

Solar panel installers are quite lucky in that to claim Feed In Tariffs a customer needs to have proof that they have paid in full for the PV system so they're usually very keen to pay asap.

Not quite the case, the person applying for the FiT has to show 'proof of ownership' - the original purchase contract is actually sufficient for that, whether they've paid in full for it or not.

@puddy - To be MCS certified and to deal with consumers, you have to be a member or RECC (nee REAL), one of the RECC conditions of membership is that you MUST issue deposit and workmanship insurance (this only came into force approx April 2012 before that it wasn't compulsory)

Their are lots of deposit and workmanship insurance (DAWI) schemes available for installers, - we use EcoSure after researching about half a dozen, we found that it fitted our and our clients needs best.

I thought the deposits were locked into a third party account until customer gives permission to release money ?????

They should be and most of the contracts I have seen do as well, they have a clause that specifically includes that permission (after the 7 day [working NOT calendar] cooling off period has elapsed.

 

[SolarCity]

Not quite the case, the person applying for the FiT has to show 'proof of ownership' - the original purchase contract is actually sufficient for that, whether they've paid in full for it or not.

That's not the experience we have had. Most FITs providers have asked us for a PAID IN FULL invoice to be issued.

And British Gas have just moved the goal posts again. They truly are an absolutely shocking outfit.

 

[Worcester]

Ownership checks
4.11. FIT Licensees are also responsible for establishing that a FIT applicant is the owner of the Eligible Installation. FIT Licensees are required to obtain documented evidence that shows the relationship between the owner and the Eligible Installation such as:

• a receipt or other documentation stating ownership, or the transfer of ownership from the previously stated owner (invoices may be accepted if the values are redacted to protect commercial interest)
• a copy of the sale and purchase agreement transferring ownership from one party to another as part of a property sale, or equivalent documentation.

As such we've also had customers use the "Contractors Signed commissioning Certificate", and this also has been accepted as proof of ownership

 

[The Solar King]

This thread just goes to show the value of this forum. Off to change our T&Cs in the morning.

Thanks to all the businesses who have contributed to this. Most of it should have been in the Sun Lounge.

 

[SRE]

No, small businesses like ourselves who understand the value of good workmanship and the importance of cashflow. I don't deal with anyone who does 30 day payment terms, I suppose I'm lucky that I have the choice

 

[Gavin A]

That's not the experience we have had. Most FITs providers have asked us for a PAID IN FULL invoice to be issued.

And British Gas have just moved the goal posts again. They truly are an absolutely shocking outfit.

that's our experience as well, and I'm entirely happy with that process, so I'm not sure why Worcester would want to challenge it.

As far as I'm concerned, the customer in no way owns the system until they've paid for it, a contract merely indicates that they've signed an agreement that would give them ownership of the system upon receipt of full payment, it is not / should not be an acceptable form of proof of ownership in itself.

 

[bugsyuk]

That has been my experience as well, all energy companies want to see a paid in full invoice. We offer to register the fee in tariff for our customers, as the forms can be an absolute minefield for some people. British Gas are quite picky as well, some of them that I have spoke to there want to see a paid in full company stamp on the invoice. The trouble is you can show or tell these energy companies the terms and conditions that they set out but they never abide by them.

 

[Worcester]

@GavinA, I'll take the discussion to the Sun Lounge as there are a number of implications....

 

[shanky887614]

Surely you could add to your terms and conditions that you own the panels till they are paid in full. To add fuel to the fire you could claim the generated rate if they don't pay in full as you havent signed over the install

 

[jason121]

I have always assumed that if customer was refusing to pay and I was in the right, that RECC or MCS would step in and refuse to pay the FITS until dispute was over.

 

[Worcester]

@Jason121 neither are interested in your contractual disputes. MCS and RECC are very clear on their areas of remit.

 

[Engineer54]

So what is a ballpark figure for a 4KW system to be supplied and installed these day's?? No-one seems in the slightest bit interested, in answering the OP's initial query, it's not as if it's an official quote you're giving out.

 

[Gavin A]

Surely you could add to your terms and conditions that you own the panels till they are paid in full. To add fuel to the fire you could claim the generated rate if they don't pay in full as you havent signed over the install

no need, unless your contract says something particularly stupid this is already the case legally - ownership of goods doesn't transfer until payment is received to the value of the contract.

 

[Gavin A]

So what is a ballpark figure for a 4KW system to be supplied and installed these day's?? No-one seems in the slightest bit interested, in answering the OP's initial query, it's not as if it's an official quote you're giving out.

£6-6.5k would be a reasonable ball park for a quality installation direct from the installer at the mid to low end of the pricing levels - we've got a guide to our prices on our website for straight forward installations.

There are some firms doing installs for £5k, but almost without exception there's no scaffolding involved or other fall protection, the team are getting paid peanuts, and nobody involved really has a clue what they're doing. I've interviewed a fair few who've been working for these companies in recent months, and none of them really know anything about the technology once you scratch the surface.

On a single roof with no shading you might get lucky, but chances are you'll end up with 2,5mm cable, so almost certainty of over voltage cut out issues, especially if others on the street get solar installed, cracked roof tiles fixed with mastic and hidden under the panels, connection to shared RCD on the household consumer unit (likely to cause nuisance tripping, and may cause the RCD to stick if it's a cheap inverter that feeds in DC current) etc.

pay peanuts, get etc

 

[Pascaleto]

I didn't understand what will happened if the customer didn't pay a long time after installation work? And the supplier want his money after 30 days,, and the work is not payed from the client.
On how many of those clients will resist a small company?
I think the risk is in both directions !!!

 

[Gavin A]

I didn't understand what will happened if the customer didn't pay a long time after installation work? And the supplier want his money after 30 days,, and the work is not payed from the client.
On how many of those clients will resist a small company?
I think the risk is in both directions !!!

which would be why it's fair to split the risk isn't it?

And in my experience, as soon as we remove the incentive of wanting to get the feed in tariff form sent off asap and needing the paid in full receipt for it, then our payment times escalate rapidly.

For example new builds where the FIT application can't be sent off until an EPC is completed, the payment times from completion of our work have been up to 3 months, so we now stagger our payments for those jobs even more - ie part payment due after panels and before inverter. The worst offender being a private customer building their own house btw, not a big firm.

 

[Berneray]

That has been my experience as well, all energy companies want to see a paid in full invoice. We offer to register the fee in tariff for our customers, as the forms can be an absolute minefield for some people. British Gas are quite picky as well, some of them that I have spoke to there want to see a paid in full company stamp on the invoice. The trouble is you can show or tell these energy companies the terms and conditions that they set out but they never abide by them.

Quite right. We also complete the application forms for customers. And right about Br Gas too. They cause me more problems than all other Energy Co's put together. Just had one rejected recently that we sent by registered post on 30th June. Reason: They said the application form was out of date. When I pointed out it could not be out of date as it was downloaded form their website they relented and agreed to register the application from the original date. That took endless calls and waiting and emails........and five different names...

They pointed out to me that the 20 years of FIT payments start not from the date of the MCS Cert....or the day they receive it......but from the date they register it for FIT.

 

[Worcester]

Nope they start from the ELIGIBILITY DATE as defined in all the rules and guides.... (and with extensions that is different from what most of them try to operate )

 

[SolarCity]

They pointed out to me that the 20 years of FIT payments start not from the date of the MCS Cert....or the day they receive it......but from the date they register it for FIT.

Likewise. They have rejected an application from one of our elderly customers as a receipt with PAID IN FULL was not accepted (although it has been for 200 of our previous applications). They told us we must resend the whole lot. We argued the point that this was utterly, utterly ridiculous and they finally relented and said we could simply send another receipt with a company stamp on it (many of you actually have one of those?!).

They have now lost the application and we need to resend the whole lot.

British Gas, frankly, should be ashamed that they carry our country's name.

 

[SRE]

They aren't unique unfortunately, every single application we've sent to Good Energy has been a complete nightmare. We have never had any issues with any of the other utilities although we haven't had to deal with British Gas yet!!

 

[SolarCity]

Really? I heard only good things from Good Energy.

In all honesty, how hard can it be?

 

[Worcester]

Eligibility date for new sites is defined in paras 5.1 - 5.16 of this document: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publicatio...d-electricity-suppliers-version-5.2-july-2013

this is an important clause:
"5.5 Receipt by a FIT Licensee of ‘a FIT applicant’s written request for MCS certified registration’ means the receipt of the FIT applicant’s personal information (including name and address), the installation’s MCS certification and physical location, and must have been signed. This would constitute sufficient information to assign an application date."

i.e not ALL the documents or even correct declarations need to have been made to establish the application date / eligibility date for the appropriate FIT rate, irrespective what various FIT providers may claim....

from the same document: the interesting difference is extensions:

"6.9. The original installation will retain its tariff rate and eligibility period, but the extension will have its own eligibility period and tariff rate. The Eligibility Date for the extension will be based on its commissioning date only, as the application date is that of the original installation. This means that different eligibility periods may apply to different components of an accredited FIT installation. Payments to the extension will accrue from its Eligibility Date; therefore the start generation meter reading must be captured on the Eligibility Date."

I have yet to find a single FIT Supplier get that correct (useful to know when near a change in tariff date )

 

[karmannmann]

Just like getting any work done word if mouth is the best policy ask your friends colleagues and neighbours. Take the time to go and see and installation ask them what they thought of the company? It amazes my with all the publicity thats been around about cowboy workmen people still hand over the bulk of the money before a job is completed to a reasonable standard.

 

[compmad1]

Yes I am looking for a guide price really.

Could you tell me what you would ask to avoid getting someone who cuts corners?

I generally get a few quotes and see who I think will do the best job, who sounds like they take pride in their work, but its often difficult to tell. Had a double glazing disaster where the owner of the business was great, seemed competent ,enthusiastic, a genuine type and in the event was; but the window fitter who also turned out to be the surveyor once the deposit was paid,was a disaster. After the windows were installed really badly I discovered the word "sub contractor". Which is something I must be aware of this time I guess. The owner did put most things right but there must have been about 15 return visits.

So if 5-6k is realistic what sort of deposit should I be prepared to pay, someone wants 2/3rds up front which has put me off him completely, although he was my front runner til then.

I have read that it is illegal to askfor more than 25% deposit.

 

[Gavin A]

I have read that it is illegal to askfor more than 25% deposit.

60% is allowed from 21 days before the installation date, 25% earlier than that.

These are RECC rules as well, I don't think they're actually the law.