distribution board

[Sonia Norman]

Hi

I was wondering if anybody has come across black stub slv? My mums church consumer unit is a nightmare. All of the connections are black stub slv, with half on them not marked as live. Thats ok for the ones that were already connected in the board. But in the board were some wires just connected loose in connector blocks! None of the circuits have an earth either. The main earth bond is there, i have just never come across a board that does not have a seperate earth with each circuit.

 

[Carlosfandango]

As in pyro??

 

[Octopus]

pop corn ready

 

[ipf]

Hi

I was wondering if anybody has come across black stub slv? My mums church consumer unit is a nightmare. All of the connections are black stub slv, with half on them not marked as live. Thats ok for the ones that were already connected in the board. But in the board were some wires just connected loose in connector blocks! None of the circuits have an earth either. The main earth bond is there, i have just never come across a board that does not have a seperate earth with each circuit.

Not pyro, by any chance?

 

[Lenny]

By black stub slv do you mean black stub sleeving i.e MICC cable conductor sleeve??

If so, the outer the outer sheathing of the MICC cable is the CPC and tbh, you wont find a lot better even after 30+ years.

What problems are you having??

 

[davesparks]

Yes I've got loads of stub sleeve in the shed, along with all of the other parts of MICC terminations.

What you have there is a type of cable called MICC, it is the preferred cable type for church wiring. As for having no earth I very much doubt it, in fact I'd go so far as to say it most certainly does have an earth on every circuit!

Stub sleeve is exactly that, a sleeve, it is put over the bare conductors and the 'stubs' of the plastic seal of the termination.

I'm shocked that someone who is working in a church doesn't know what MICC is, what cable are you installing if not that?

 

[Simonslimline]

Does it look like this?

 

[Sonia Norman]

Quite possibly as this I havent worked on this yet. And plesd dont all start shouting. I have another electrician coming in to help I just want to have some info before hand.

 

[Sonia Norman]

I am not installing cable, I am going to change the distribution board as the current board is an old rewireable and in a shocking state. I'm doing it free for experience with guidance.

 

[davesparks]

Quite possibly as this I havent worked on this yet. And plesd dont all start shouting. I have another electrician coming in to help I just want to have some info before hand.

Another electrician? Did the first one not know what this is either?

There is going to be a lot of shouting I'm afraid! An electrician who doesn't even recognise a common cable like micc when they see it is not an electrician in anyone's book! Even if they are incapable of working with this cable an electrician should recognise it, especially in a church where it always was and often still is the only type of cable allowed!

 

[Sonia Norman]

Does it look like this?




View attachment 28201

Yes, thank you. More research before bed for me then. Bloody gpood job its pyro with all the dry rot ive found!

 

[Sonia Norman]

Another electrician? Did the first one not know what this is either?

There is going to be a lot of shouting I'm afraid! An electrician who doesn't even recognise a common cable like micc when they see it is not an electrician in anyone's book! Even if they are incapable of working with this cable an electrician should recognise it, especially in a church where it always was and often still is the only type of cable allowed!

I suggest you shout at prospects college then, because they never once showed us this.

 

[7029 dave]

Stub sleeve?, I know as neoprene.

 

[uksparks]

That's going to be interesting changing that! It would be nice to see a picture.

 

[trev]

So if this is being done under the guidance of an experienced electrician how come you're not asking him/her what it is and how it should be dealt with?
I'd be pretty ticked off if I found an apprentice was scared to ask questions on site, perhaps mostly ticked off with myself for giving the impression that questions weren't allowed. It's how an apprentice learns.
I must have driven my mentor mad while I was a boy.

 

[Sonia Norman]

So if this is being done under the guidance of an experienced electrician how come you're not asking him/her what it is and how it should be dealt with?
I'd be pretty ticked off if I found an apprentice was scared to ask questions on site, perhaps mostly ticked off with myself for giving the impression that questions weren't allowed. It's how an apprentice learns.
I must have driven my mentor mad while I was a boy.

I will ask him tomorrow, but want to have at least done as much homework myself as possible.

 

[davesparks]

I am not installing cable, I am going to change the distribution board as the current board is an old rewireable and in a shocking state. I'm doing it free for experience with guidance.

Walk away if you have no experience of working with micc, it's easy once you know how but until then it is easy to make some expensive mistakes!

For a start the cable sheath forms the earth of the circuit which connects via a compression ring in the gland and onto the steel surface of the DB. You need to ensure a mechanically and electrically sound connection with the steel surface or find another way to earth the sheath, making a brass gland plate or using earthing nuts may work. Or reterminating them all with earth tail pots.

Also you may need to reterminate some of them which requires the correct tools and some experience. Plus knowing how far you can or cannot bend it without cracking the sheath if it's old.

And if it's imperial MICC you may well need to solder a new pot onto the cable or carefully shape the sheath with emery if you need to re-terminate. Not a job for the inexperienced!

 

[uksparks]

I must have driven my mentor mad while I was a boy.

You see Trev, the difference here is that when you were a boy, the computer or internet had not been invented ;-) just kidding, but it's true, these days people turn to the internet first, which I guess is good for certain things, but if you are under the supervision of another, then you should really be asking them.

 

[davesparks]

I suggest you shout at prospects college then, because they never once showed us this.

Of suggest you go and ask for your money back on the course!

 

[davesparks]

You see Trev, the difference here is that when you were a boy, the computer or internet had not been invented ;-) just kidding, but it's true, these days people turn to the internet first, which I guess is good for certain things, but if you are under the supervision of another, then you should really be asking them.

I turned to my mentor first, and I still do. I'm not averse to phoning the guy I served my apprenticeship with even today if I am unsure of something. And the reverse is also true, he phones me for advice or to just talk something over sometimes.

 

[trev]

I will ask him tomorrow, but want to have at least done as much homework myself as possible.

Pyro is not for the uninitiated or the faint of heart Sonia. That said, you have an opportunity to gain a very worthwhile skill that will never leave you. You'll get rusty at it but it's like riding a bike, you never forget it.
Once you get used to it you'll learn to love the stuff. I, and most of the other dinosaurs on here, do. Watch, learn and soak it up. And see if you can get your hands on some scrap ends to practice on (NB the tools needed can be expensive)

 

[Sonia Norman]

That's going to be interesting changing that! It would be nice to see a picture.

I'll take one tomorrow

 

[GB.Kayak]

Yes, thank you. More research before bed for me then. Bloody gpood job its pyro with all the dry rot ive found!

Sonia, I am not taking the 'Micky' but are you also sure that you have found dry rot?

If so, what action is being or has been taken to deal with it?

 

[ruston]

You see Trev, the difference here is that when you were a boy, the computer or internet had not been invented ;-) just kidding, but it's true, these days people turn to the internet first, which I guess is good for certain things, but if you are under the supervision of another, then you should really be asking them.

Lol ,trip to the library , then the answer to the boss on Monday morning - or else!!

 

[Andy78]

Crikey!

I think Dave and Trev's advice needs heeding here. If you don't even recognise MI cable and have never touched it, I would recommend leaving this DB swap to someone with experience and just observing. A shiny new DB with a load of mangled copper ends near it would not be a fun thing to have to explain.

 

[Leesparkykent]

http://www.swaonline.co.uk/files/ww/Catalogue Page 46 - MICC Products.pdf

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GoJLrQxRbEk

Have a look at these to give you a head start before your mentor shows you on site.

 

[rompling]

Hi Sonia
Have read your posts and your experience levels - love your will to succeed in this electrics lark
As others have said its a learning curve !
Electrics in a church normally all MICC and changing a board all in MICC is quite a challenge for even the most experienced
I suggest you watch and learn from the this other more experienced sparky ( I hope he is up to it ) and your next project is a little less tricky

All the best for you'd future career and hope someone gives you a chance

 

[shanky887614]

Another electrician? Did the first one not know what this is either?

There is going to be a lot of shouting I'm afraid! An electrician who doesn't even recognise a common cable like micc when they see it is not an electrician in anyone's book! Even if they are incapable of working with this cable an electrician should recognise it, especially in a church where it always was and often still is the only type of cable allowed!

its not that common imho, ive only really seen it at some hospitals, national grid office sites and once in a pub

 

[Leesparkykent]

^^Bet you knew what it was though?^^

 

[shanky887614]

Walk away if you have no experience of working with micc, it's easy once you know how but until then it is easy to make some expensive mistakes!

For a start the cable sheath forms the earth of the circuit which connects via a compression ring in the gland and onto the steel surface of the DB. You need to ensure a mechanically and electrically sound connection with the steel surface or find another way to earth the sheath, making a brass gland plate or using earthing nuts may work. Or reterminating them all with earth tail pots.

Also you may need to reterminate some of them which requires the correct tools and some experience. Plus knowing how far you can or cannot bend it without cracking the sheath if it's old.

And if it's imperial MICC you may well need to solder a new pot onto the cable or carefully shape the sheath with emery if you need to re-terminate. Not a job for the inexperienced!

just to add for future readers, it is not worth the trouble moving some boards, your better ripping the guts out and using them as a joint box.

hopefully the micc is terminated into couplers first or trunking and not direct into the board or you will find it tricky.


the odd micc would be fine if your inexperienced but it can be a right pig for a lot of cables, damage one and you will have to shorten them all to get them in the board

 

[shanky887614]

Pyro is not for the uninitiated or the faint of heart Sonia. That said, you have an opportunity to gain a very worthwhile skill that will never leave you. You'll get rusty at it but it's like riding a bike, you never forget it.
Once you get used to it you'll learn to love the stuff. I, and most of the other dinosaurs on here, do. Watch, learn and soak it up. And see if you can get your hands on some scrap ends to practice on (NB the tools needed can be expensive)

the tools can be picked up for a reasonable price on ebay

the brands to look for with reguards to tooling are;
pyrotenax
bicc

joistripper is handy for the smaller stuff but a rotary stripper is needed for the bigger stuff (or snips and driver)

dont be tempted to snip itit either as you will struggle to screw the pot on

 

[shanky887614]

^^Bet you knew what it was though?^^

yes, i was shown it at college and bought the tools and got some cable, 2l1 pots and glands online
(thanks to a kind member on here for the cable)

 

[ruston]

yes, i was shown it at college and bought the tools and got some cable, 2l1 pots and glands online
(thanks to a kind member on here for the cable)

Good for you.:smile5::smile5:

 

[davesparks]

just to add for future readers, it is not worth the trouble moving some boards, your better ripping the guts out and using them as a joint box.

hopefully the micc is terminated into couplers first or trunking and not direct into the board or you will find it tricky.


the odd micc would be fine if your inexperienced but it can be a right pig for a lot of cables, damage one and you will have to shorten them all to get them in the board

What utter rollocks!
If you can't do the job without turning the old board into a joint box then walk away and let someone who will do the job properly do it.

And damaging one doesn't necessarily require the whole lot to be re-terminated, there could be any number of ways of getting over that.

 

[shanky887614]

What utter rollocks!
If you can't do the job without turning the old board into a joint box then walk away and let someone who will do the job properly do it.

And damaging one doesn't necessarily require the whole lot to be re-terminated, there could be any number of ways of getting over that.

i said some not all and im not just counting small db's here im including panels as well, we have had panels with 20+ micc (bare copper no shroud either) directly into the top of the panel all in a tight formation down a wall.

 

[davesparks]

Oh my golly gosh, 20+ bare pyro's! Whaddaya want, a medal or something?

Take the gland plate from the old board and use it as a template for the new one. Then when you're finished give the cables a quick clean and polish and they'll look as good as new.

There are places out there with far more than 20 Pyro's installed into boards. If I get a chance soon I get some pictures of some theatre installs where there are at least 96 circuits wired in the stuff coming out of patch panels.

 

[shanky887614]

Oh my golly gosh, 20+ bare pyro's! Whaddaya want, a medal or something?

Take the gland plate from the old board and use it as a template for the new one. Then when you're finished give the cables a quick clean and polish and they'll look as good as new.

There are places out there with far more than 20 Pyro's installed into boards. If I get a chance soon I get some pictures of some theatre installs where there are at least 96 circuits wired in the stuff coming out of patch panels.

i said+ i didnt count and not all panels have glandplates either

 

[davesparks]

So cut the top bit off with the holes in it and use that as the template

My point is that it doesn't matter how many there are in there, the job should be done properly and not bodged with turning old DBs into unnecessary joint boxes.

 

[Dcf]

i said some not all and im not just counting small db's here im including panels as well, we have had panels with 20+ micc (bare copper no shroud either) directly into the top of the panel all in a tight formation down a wall.

The op is talking about a rewirable board in a church hall it probably an eight way or such like.
even your panel with 20micc cables should be (or was) standard work for an electrician in my book.
an experienced hand should manage this task no bother as it's not a fusion reactor we are talking about

 

[davesparks]

What's next? SWA becoming a specialist job with common electricians advised to leave it where it is and just extend it to a new board rather than remove the old one?

 

[Darkwood]

The problem the OP will need to get a well seasoned person in who has plenty of experience with both MICC and old installs, the MICC is very durable and can be expected to last a century even with a few bashes but the issue is is how good the pots were made off originally, disturbing rested pots can cause all manor of issues and its even worse in old listed buildings as its likely to be imperial - I've had to rescue many a failed attempt at upgrading DB's with MICC's as part of the install and I heard they are introducing it back in in teaching... it disappeared with from colleges with the introduction of FP cables and as part of the dumming down to ensure high pass rates for political gain but thats another thread altogether.

Most of the new generation of 'Electricians'! no longer have the skill set that were essential and a requirement only 2 decades ago... hence it is so diluted now you can be called one after 5 weeks!

 

[Engineer54]

I hope this other electrician has a decent experience of MICC, especially if any of the terminations needs re-terminating for any reason, as the chances are that from your description these will be the older imperial sized MICC cables....

EDIT....Must of had the same thoughts at the same time as darkwood!! lol!

 

[Knobhead]

I wonder what insurance Sonia has.

Churches are bloody expensive to rebuild after a fire.

 

[Pete999]

Hope you are going to use a metal DB.

 

[Guest77]

Quite possibly as this I havent worked on this yet. And plesd dont all start shouting. I have another electrician coming in to help I just want to have some info before hand.

Why?? he or she will know what to do

 

[Pete999]

To early for the popcorn isn't it?

 

[shanky887614]

 

[Knobhead]

It is a bit early and I’ve just taken my morning medication so popcorn wont sit well on top of them.

Sonia, take a bit of advice, walk away.
It’s clear you haven’t a clue what you’re doing and if it goes wrong………… It may be a church, god won’t help you if insurance gets involved.

 

[Tidy Max]

So cut the top bit off with the holes in it and use that as the template

My point is that it doesn't matter how many there are in there, the job should be done properly and not bodged with turning old DBs into unnecessary joint boxes.

Is it really that bad to extend the circuits? I appreciate if there wasn't space then a direct swap would be necessary but given the additional work and not to mention the problems that could be created from moving the old micc. Installing a JB and extending the circuits to a new DB seems like quite a logical solution.

Forgetting the dumbing down of the trade etc what is so bad about extending the cables?

 

[shanky887614]

Is it really that bad to extend the circuits? I appreciate if there wasn't space then a direct swap would be necessary but given the additional work and not to mention the problems that could be created from moving the old micc. Installing a JB and extending the circuits to a new DB seems like quite a logical solution.

Forgetting the dumbing down of the trade etc what is so bad about extending the cables?

davespark is stuck up his own arse is the problem, he seems to be forgetting the fact a modern board will probably be bigger as well so might need a new location.

nothing wrong with joints in any circuits according to the regs as long as there maintenance free or accessible so why would a jb not be allowed?