Fault on kitchen ring

[TheCodboy]

Hi all. Had a phone call about a tripping RCD. The customer had narrowed it down to the kitchen ring. When I go there,it was indeed the kitchen ring causing the tripping. Firstly checked the usual,nothing plugged in to any of the sockets. Checked the connections at the sockets,these were all fine. Checked end to ends,had continuity on L,N & E. Carried out IR between LN & E at 250v,very low reading,virtually zero. Also tested L-E N-E & L-N. All very low. Now,the cables in the kitchen are red/black and the cables at the board are Brown/Blue. There no sign of any crimps etc at the board (which by the way is a total mess). So I’m thinking hidden joints/jb could be the source of the problem?? Any pointers would be appreciated!

 

[Pete999]

Hi all. Had a phone call about a tripping RCD. The customer had narrowed it down to the kitchen ring. When I go there,it was indeed the kitchen ring causing the tripping. Firstly checked the usual,nothing plugged in to any of the sockets. Checked the connections at the sockets,these were all fine. Checked end to ends,had continuity on L,N & E. Carried out IR between LN & E at 250v,very low reading,virtually zero. Also tested L-E N-E & L-N. All very low. Now,the cables in the kitchen are red/black and the cables at the board are Brown/Blue. There no sign of any crimps etc at the board (which by the way is a total mess). So I’m thinking hidden joints/jb could be the source of the problem?? Any pointers would be appreciated!

Not sure if this question has been asked before? is the tripping a new occurrence, when did it start, has the customer had any DIY done recently, or did the tripping start immediately after the Kitchen was fitted? sorry for all the questions, didn't mean to interrogate you.

 

[TheCodboy]

Apparently there has been a neutral fault on this circuit for years. The board was changed about 5 years ago and it was noted. The tripping fault has just started. The kitchen has been in for donkeys years. There’s been no works carried out at the property.[/QUOTE]

 

[suffolkspark]

Im not sure why it would have been so difficult just to locate the faulty leg on such a small ring final circuit?

 

[Pete999]

Obviously

Sorry Mate, a bad habit of mine not reading the full set of posts, my bad, at a loss to advise, like you said a difficult one.

 

[TheCodboy]

Sorry Mate, a bad habit of mine not reading the full set of posts, my bad, at a loss to advise, like you said a difficult one.

Sorry I pressed the wrong button!!!! Didn’t mean to send that! Apologies!

 

[Pete999]

Sorry I pressed the wrong button!!!! Didn’t mean to send that! Apologies!

No worries, no offence taken, I need to read the entire post.

 

[Octopus]

I’m sure the customer would rather I didn’t start dismantling kitchen units to look for jb’s and/or sockets that no one knows are there,if they are there at all.

But you aren't 100% sure there isn't another connection(s) you are not aware of ...................

 

[TheCodboy]

But you aren't 100% sure there isn't another connection(s) you are not aware of ...................

Well there certainly one joint at least,as the colours are new at the board and old at the sockets. The wiring is such a mess inside the board,it’s difficult to actually see in which direction the ring goes off. There is trunking with cables coming out of the db in all directions. It’s a total mess. For the sake of running about 10-15 meters of new cable and putting up some new trunking,customer gets their kitchen sockets back. By the time I’ve actually found the fault I probably could have finished putting in e new stuff!

 

[TheCodboy]

But you aren't 100% sure there isn't another connection(s) you are not aware of ...................

The entire install really needs an eicr carried out with the board stripped out and re-terminated,but I get the impression that the customer isn’t exactly flush with cash.

 

[Toneyz]

The entire install really needs an eicr carried out with the board stripped out and re-terminated,but I get the impression that the customer isn’t exactly flush with cash.

That may be the reason why the fault was left in the first place the customer couldn't afford to do so.

 

[TheCodboy]

That may be the reason why the fault was left in the first place the customer.

From what I understand,it has been one delightful diy find after another since they bought the house.

 

[Toneyz]

Have you actually found which of the four legs of cable in the ring has the fault on it as reading the posts Gavin (post 8) suggested this as it is not clear to me? Is there another ring in the kitchen as three sockets don't seem a lot.

 

[TheCodboy]

Have you actually found which of the four legs of cable in the ring has the fault on it as reading the posts Gavin (post 8) suggested this as it is not clear to me? Is there another ring in the kitchen as three sockets don't seem a lot.

According to the board there is one circuit for kitchen sockets. The customer has shown me the sockets that they are aware of. I’ve asked about fcu’s etc and they reckon none. I’ve had a look in cupboards etc and I can’t see anything else.

 

[Octopus]

According to the board there is one circuit for kitchen sockets. The customer has shown me the sockets that they are aware of. I’ve asked about fcu’s etc and they reckon none. I’ve had a look in cupboards etc and I can’t see anything else.

I wouldn't trust that for a start ........... nor the client ....

 

[TheCodboy]

I wouldn't trust that for a start ........... nor the client ....

Hence my approach of put new in,save myself hassle and time. The entire install is a mess.

 

[TheCodboy]

I wish I’d taken a picture when I was there. There’s a good chance the best advice I would have been given is to just get back in the van and drive away!!

 

[Toneyz]

There is many a job that we would like to do that, but this is part of being an electrician this is what we are trained to do.

 

[TheCodboy]

There is many a job that we would like to do that, but this is part of being an electrician this is what we are trained to do.

I’ve got a feeling that there’s a big adaptable box somewhere,with a birds nest of jointed cables in it.

 

[Pete999]

From what I understand,it has been one delightful diy find after another since they bought the house.

Makes you wonder if the customer is telling you the whole truth and nothing but the truth, since he was the one who pointed to the Kitchen RFC in the first place.

 

[Midwest]

Hence my approach of put new in,save myself hassle and time. The entire install is a mess.

I don't see why the OP is getting some hard time on this approach.

If it's quicker & less costly to rewire the RFC, I would do the same. He could spend the time locating the fault (or not), but it also might leave some poor joint or other unseen poor installation. Least he can leave it this way, in the knowledge that it as near perfect as he can achieve.

 

[TheCodboy]

Makes you wonder if the customer is telling you the whole truth and nothing but the truth, since he was the one who pointed to the Kitchen RFC in the first place.

Well how he came to the conclusion is the way we would. Knocked all the mcb’s off then turned back on one at a time till he found the one that tripped. Or at least that’s what he told me!!

 

[Octopus]

I don't see why the OP is getting some hard time on this approach.

We all know that randomly replacing parts isn't a good idea ... and if there are really only 3 sockets identifying where the break is shouldn't take long ............. 2 radials anyone?

 

[TheCodboy]

I don't see why the OP is getting some hard time on this approach.

If it's quicker & less costly to rewire the RFC, I would do the same. He could spend the time locating the fault (or not), but it also might leave some poor joint or other unseen poor installation. Least he can leave it this way, in the knowledge that it as near perfect as he can achieve.

Thanks for the support in my approach. Obviously in an ideal world,locating the fault would be great,but in this instance I just think it’s easier to put new in.

 

[Midwest]

We all know that randomly replacing parts isn't a good idea ... and if there are really only 3 sockets identifying where the break is shouldn't take long ............. 2 radials anyone?

We could all spend our time amusing ourselves, but if new is the cheaper and more thorough option, then its the only option.

In any case, we are just armchair critics; the OP's been onsite & is best placed to make that decision.

 

[Toneyz]

I am still awaiting the OP to say where the fault is? assuming he has located the leg which has the fault.

 

[TheCodboy]

I am still awaiting the OP to say where the fault is? assuming he has located the leg which has the fault.

I am still awaiting the OP to say where the fault is? assuming he has located the leg which has the fault.

Once I IR tested it,and it came back with a virtually zero reading,I didn’t split it and investigate any more. Again,looking at the state of the current install,to me it would be better to just put new in. The customer only wants 3 sockets. 2 of which I can drill straight through from the garage and the other straight through a void in the floor. Then when done,I can rest easy in the knowledge that the entire circuit is 100%. No hidden nasties anywhere else,waiting to go wrong further down the line,which will result in me having to go back.

 

[Toneyz]

Once I IR tested it,and it came back with a virtually zero reading,I didn’t split it and investigate any more. Again,looking at the state of the current install,to me it would be better to just put new in. The customer only wants 3 sockets. 2 of which I can drill straight through from the garage and the other straight through a void in the floor. Then when done,I can rest easy in the knowledge that the entire circuit is 100%. No hidden nasties anywhere else,waiting to go wrong further down the line,which will result in me having to go back.

Thanks for the reply, now you have explained it seems the easiest option and best action.

 

[TheCodboy]

Thanks for the reply, now you have explained it seems the easiest option and best action.

Once on site I’ll take some pictures of the job which will hopefully paint a clearer picture. I know sometimes it’s hard to visualise what someone is putting in words.

 

[loz2754]

Once I IR tested it,and it came back with a virtually zero reading,I didn’t split it and investigate any more. Again,looking at the state of the current install,to me it would be better to just put new in. The customer only wants 3 sockets. 2 of which I can drill straight through from the garage and the other straight through a void in the floor. Then when done,I can rest easy in the knowledge that the entire circuit is 100%. No hidden nasties anywhere else,waiting to go wrong further down the line,which will result in me having to go back.

The only possible problem I see with putting in a new circuit might be if the original circuit feeds other points somewhere else besides the kitchen. If that's the case, disconnecting the existing kitchen circuit would leave any such points dead.
My own professional curiosity (or maybe just my OCD!) would not let me give up before I'd found the reason for the fault.
But that's just me...

 

[TheCodboy]

The only possible problem I see with putting in a new circuit might be if the original circuit feeds other points somewhere else besides the kitchen. If that's the case, disconnecting the existing kitchen circuit would leave any such points dead.
My own professional curiosity (or maybe just my OCD!) would not let me give up before I'd found the reason for the fault.
But that's just me...

The customer hasn’t told me of anything else being off but I’ll certainly double check!