Immersion Heater - PV electricity

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Immersion Heater - PV electricity

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CBR600 said:
Has anyone got a view on the patent that has been awarded to Coolpower for their EMMA unit? It seems to suggest that they have a patent over any form of domestic load manager where the there are two forms of supply. I have had a look through it and on page 10 claim 1 it is pretty specific about the operation of the unit so I am not sure what impact this might have on other similar devices as long as they operate in a different way.

This is a link to the patent;

Intellectual Property Office - Patents publication enquiry
Click to expand...

I have had the patent checked and the advice was the claim for a load controller is too general to stand on its own as any energy management system would infringe it and be prior art invalidating it. Therefore you have to take the claim in conjunction with the description Of operation. The description and diagram specifically says alternative energy and house consumption are independently measured and compared. The systems designed by myself and others using a single ct to measure net power should not be covered by this patent but as always how deep are your pockets to defend yourself.
 
methley said:
@Duplada - That's a really neat solution using two thermostats (although I think you got them the wrong way up in your description?). How noisy is the Ebay pump compared to a central heating pump on its lowest setting?
Click to expand...

Yes, good spot my diagram is correct but my explanation incorrect (NO) thermostat to the top and NC thermostat to the bottom of the cylinder.

The pump is really quiet, quieter than my central heating pump and cannot be heard with the airing cupboard door shut.

As I said in a previous post the credit goes to inie meanie for the idea all I did was tell you about it and draw the diagram.

However, I can share with you something I did do myself. I am one of those people who hate wires all over the place and everything neat and tidy. So I designed a layout to build into a small Maplin project box. In addition to my pumping solution I wanted to know how much hot water I had in my tank (mine is a 2 meters tall). So I set about finding some LCD temperature sensors that I could attach to the tank. My design below shows 2 but I ended up using 4 equally split down the length of the tank. I added an LED so I could see at a glance if the pump was in operation, and used 2.5mm panel mount sockets with matching plugs to connect the 2 Thermostats, power and pump. I also fitted 2 plastic 22m pipe clips to the back of the box so I could clip it to one of the pipes next to the tank. With this I have a neatly wired solution that can be easily mounted and disconnected, and I can see at a glance how much hot water I have and whether the pump is running.

Components used (in addition to pump and thermostats)
1 Maplin project box H2853
4 ebay 2.5mm panel mount sockets with matching plugs
1 12V Panel Mount LED Indicator Light ebay
1 4 way connection block
1 10mm rubber grommet (for temp sensor wire exit)
2 22mm plastic pipe clips (the type with two screw holes)
4 LCD Temperature sensors (ebay search "Digital LC Display Screen Temperature Tester In-/ Outdoor Thermometer mit Sensor")

Thats it, hope you find it useful

regards Duplada
View attachment 14095
 
Or you could use this: PU 120 Grundfos Pump 1 Plastic Body some one here: Pumps : Plastic Body Grundfoss 1 it's a Gruindfos pump, imported from the EU as Grundfos don't sell it in the uK

The reason to the link in my previous post 'only heats top of cylinder' is to do withj the challenge of legionella. - there's a whole thread started over ther about it.
 
You won't find data sheets sorry, it's a grey impoprt, yes it is mains powered, if you give either of the above company's a call the'll tell you the spec - 3 speeds 15/60 from what I recall
 
I received a mailing from the company who installed my PV system today. They appear to be dealers for the Immersun proportional device that "Worcester" introduced in the posts above. The letter went into the the usual in's and out's of having a proportional device which have been discussed here many times before, and estimates potential savings of £50 - £70 per annum. What caught my attention was the cost, from £600 plus VAT. Whilst this is significantly cheaper than the Emma device £1500. It is still going to take a least 10 years plus to get a return on your investment. My experience using one of "echase's" proportional devices, is that unless you have a large cylinder and a long immersion element, or a circulation pump to maximise the amount of hot water you can store (more cost), then you will not be able to use all of your spare PV export on sunnier days :). Thus making the wait for a return on investment even longer. I would not be a buyer at £600 plus, however, at half that price or less I would consider it, if I didn't have the knowledge and expertise to build my own device.

regards Duplada
 
There is another way to do this which is to just have the pump and a small 12V PV panel, no stats. Saves on mains power. When sunny the water is heating strongly and the pump runs. When half sunny it half runs to match the half heating. When no sun does not run. Need to match the panel with pump via resistors to move just the right amount of water.

I have this arrangement provided c/o a Solartwin solar thermal system that was already fitted.

May need fair sized panel to power that pump though.

To give finer control though one stat at top of tank would stop the running until water is nearly up to temperature.
 
EMMA vs Immersun.... I am looking at using the Immersun product, just as it seems to be priced fair compared to the EMMA unit... however after checking this Patent from EMMA.... Im not even sure if we are allowed to buy it as EMMA is stating: "No one else can now manufacture, sell or install any such devices in the UK without the authorisation of Cool Power Products" To be honest just this statement puts me off using EMMA... Am i reading this right that according to them no one is allowed to IMMERSUN? and if so we must have Coolpowers permission to install this? Would love to hear some thoughts on this.. As the Excess Power to immersion really makes a diffirence...
 
I'm not an intellectual property expert, but my understanding of patent law is that a patent can only cover a design, not the idea behind it. So if the works in your box are a copy of the works in EMMA's (presumably patented) box, they have protection, whereas if the works in your box only do the same job as the works in their box, there is no patent protection. Obviously there are shades of grey about what constitutes a copy; but EMMA's claim to have some sort of legal authority over "any such device" sounds like an attempt to suggest that they own the whole idea (which is impossible). You might as well say that the Wright brothers owned the right to say whether anyone else could build a fixed wing aircraft. If I were a prospective manufacturer, I might be wise to run my design past a patent lawyer just in case my design was just like theirs: but as an installer, acting in good faith with a product available on the open market, you need have no worries. In the unlikely event of any legal action, it would be taken against the manufacturer, not the installer.

Incidentally, has anyone had anything to do with the Engensia Solar 24 box, which appears to do the same as Immersun, but cheaper still - and appears to have been developed on this forum?
OG
 
Hi all. These recircculating pumping systems seem all very neat but by the time you've bought a decent pump, two thermostats etc the overall cost sneaks up appreciably. Just wondering if anyone has had any experience retrofitting a second immersion heater at the bottom of the tank? On reflection, shame but at a glance the central heating coils of a standard tank seem to sit too close to the bottom to fit a standard immersion anyway.
 
Maurice Sauer said:
Hi all. These recircculating pumping systems seem all very neat but by the time you've bought a decent pump, two thermostats etc the overall cost sneaks up appreciably. Just wondering if anyone has had any experience retrofitting a second immersion heater at the bottom of the tank? On reflection, shame but at a glance the central heating coils of a standard tank seem to sit too close to the bottom to fit a standard immersion anyway.
Click to expand...

That is the problem! Also I didn't fancy cutting the hole just in case I couldn't then get a proper seal. Remember that the Essex fittings for that size 2 1/4 inch also have a cost plus that of another heater and then you need to consider a contactor and thermostat to switch over between the two or you might just have a full tank of luke warm as opposed to a half tank of hot water which is useable.
 
The longest top fitting immersion that fits is not inexpensive. Or if you live in a hard water area bite the bullet and change your tank for a taller or dual element one. It’s going to fail someday anyway due to the hard water.
 
echase said:
The longest top fitting immersion that fits is not inexpensive. Or if you live in a hard water area bite the bullet and change your tank for a taller or dual element one. It’s going to fail someday anyway due to the hard water.
Click to expand...

I changed mine from a 27 to a 36 which just clanged the coils while rotating during fitting but was clear when tightened up checked it with a fibre camera. however the temperature reached before cut out as measured by thermocouples every few inches up the tank hardly changed still at least I now had one of the newer ones with the extra safety stat.
 
I am also keen on this system and have been "lurking" on this thread for several months waiting for the progress that now seems very close.
echase - can you please send me details if this is available to buy.

I have also wondered about how to best use the hot water this generates, and was thinking about putting a thermostatic mixer valve in to the feed for the dishwasher and washing machine (both cold feed only), to give them warm water at about 30-40C. Thinking that this will reduce the amount of electricity they use in heating up water, which will mean they draw less from the grid, and leave more to heat up water...
 
This is exactly what I've done. The washing machine runs off a 30 degree feed off a short pipe run from the cylinder. Dogs have a nice warm outside tap for washes too!
 
jsebright said:
I have also wondered about how to best use the hot water this generates, and was thinking about putting a thermostatic mixer valve in to the feed for the dishwasher and washing machine (both cold feed only), to give them warm water at about 30-40C.
Click to expand...
I think they work best when they start with cold water, which washes certain foods off before they "bake" on.
 
@OldGrouser from what I recall (can't find it now on the Engensa site), their Solar 24 IS an ImmerSUN, - by the way an install shouldn't be 'from £600 plus VAT' - that's a rip off.
 
Hi. I have been slowly pulling together the kit for the simple 12v circulating pump system described by Duplada, all at reasonable cost. Over some months I've drawn a blank on the 12v KSD9700 60 NO thermostat though - my only outstanding item. The NC variant seems readilly available from e.g. ebay. Anyone got ideas on sourcing KSD9700 60 NO (preferably with metal casing) or a alternative?
thanks
Mo
 
Hi Maurice,

When I purchased my KSD9700 NC/NO switches from eBay, I looked for a seller who listed a NC version and then asked them if they also had a NO version. I suggest you do the same. Search for a seller chinaeproducts (they don't have any listed at the moment) send them an email and tell them what you want, this is where I purchased mine.

Alternatively you could use these, search on ebay for KSD301 60 these switches have better hysteresis than the KDS9700. The KDS9700 switch at 60 +/- 5 degrees and reset at 40 +/- 10 Degrees. The KSD301 switch at 60 +/- 3 Degrees and reset at 45 +/- 5 Degrees. The KSD301 also have two lugs which you can use to secure to the tank with elastic.

Hope this helps.

regards Duplada
 
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