Minor Works Certificates

C

Chris Hex

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Hi,
The NICEIC just told me I should not be issuing Minor Works Certificates for work carried out by the house owner but inspected and tested by me (NICEIC registered). I'm a bit surprised. So is that right no-one is allowed to run their own cables and connect their own sockets without energising the system, it all has to be done by a someone who is in a competent person scheme.
Cheers

Chris
 
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Think what they are getting at is, how can you certify work done by someone else, when you haven't a clue how the cabling was installed.
Not working any more and never been in one of the scams, what are the NICEICs thoughts on 3d party certification?
 
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Pete999 said:
Think what they are getting at is, how can you certify work done by someone else, when you haven't a clue how the cabling was installed.
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That's a fair point. In this case as its in the garage I can see the cable run. So I guess the alternatives are pay for someone to run the cable or find someone who is willing to say they did it.
 
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Chris Hex said:
That's a fair point. In this case as its in the garage I can see the cable run. So I guess the alternatives are pay for someone to run the cable or find someone who is willing to say they did it.
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What exactly was the job that your customer did
 
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With STROMA they were very jumpy about third party work being certified by me. However they saw my sub-contractors agreement and said that it would be OK to do it this way. So I get the person working to sign and date an all risk/H&S compliance statement including method statement. This way the onus is on them if they have departed from proper practices as they know the standard they have to work to, and only have themselves to blame if it goes wrong, as I have specified very particulary all the Acts and regs and H&S they agree to adhere to.
 
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Vortigern said:
With STROMA they were very jumpy about third party work being certified by me. However they saw my sub-contractors agreement and said that it would be OK to do it this way. So I get the person working to sign and date an all risk/H&S compliance statement including method statement. This way the onus is on them if they have departed from proper practices as they know the standard they have to work to, and only have themselves to blame if it goes wrong, as I have specified very particulary all the Acts and regs and H&S they agree to adhere to.
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That sounds like a good solution but I think I'll stick to a condition report in future.
 
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Chris Hex said:
2.5 T & E clipped direct to the block work. CPC sleeved inside the sockets and terminations were correct. What do you think I might have missed?
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Not sure if you have missed anything Chris, wondered if he had actually broken into the RFC or did the usual DIY trick of spurring the sockets, either way you have had to do the complete Ring test
 
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I would personally not issue a MWC for works I haven't carried out. EICR is fine, you could even limit it to the circuit/s which have been altered. Hate to say it but I am with the NIC on this. I feel a cold wind:)
 
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Pete999 said:
Not sure if you have missed anything Chris, wondered if he had actually broken into the RFC or did the usual DIY trick of spurring the sockets, either way you have had to do the complete Ring test
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Thanks for the input Pete, its helpful. He had removed a single socket and added two junction boxes and extended from there. I did r1, r2, rn, then R1+R2, Insulation, Ze and RCD.
 
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Pete999 said:
Not sure if you have missed anything Chris, wondered if he had actually broken into the RFC or did the usual DIY trick of spurring the sockets, either way you have had to do the complete Ring test
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input Pete, its helpful. He had removed a single socket and added two junction boxes and extended from there. I did r1, r2, rn, then R1+R2, Insulation, Ze and RCD.

westward10 said:
I would personally not issue a MWC for works I haven't carried out. EICR is fine, you could even limit it to the circuit/s which have been altered. Hate to say it but I am with the NIC on this. I feel a cold wind:)
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Thanks for the input Westwood, I'll stick to an EICR and just the extended circuits in future.
 
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Don't forget as a member the NICEIE carries certain warranty comitments for its members.
So signing off on other peoples work leaves you and them liable.
A condition report is the safer solution although some building controls aren't keen.
I guess you can make a call on each job based on what you can inspect and decide if you are prepared to say it was your work.
 
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Pat H said:
Don't forget as a member the NICEIE carries certain warranty comitments for its members.
So signing off on other peoples work leaves you and them liable.
A condition report is the safer solution although some building controls aren't keen.
I guess you can make a call on each job based on what you can inspect and decide if you are prepared to say it was your work.
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Thanks for the advice Pat
 
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Murdoch said:
No..... and why are the NICEIC involved?
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He rang me and asked if I could help. I have charged him money in exchange. That money goes towards paying for shelter and food for my family.

I use NICEIC competent person scheme. I would be genuinely interested if there is a better way of certificating and notifying domestic work.
 
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Chris Hex said:
He rang me and asked if I could help. I have charged him money in exchange. That money goes towards paying for shelter and food for my family.

I use NICEIC competent person scheme. I would be genuinely interested if there is a better way of certificating and notifying domestic work.
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Why did the DIYer think it needed certifying and notifying?

Is this an extension under building control?
 
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Chris Hex said:
He rang me and asked if I could help. I have charged him money in exchange. That money goes towards paying for shelter and food for my family.

I use NICEIC competent person scheme. I would be genuinely interested if there is a better way of certificating and notifying domestic work.
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The only way is to carry out an EICR ideally on the whole installation, the problem with limiting to the altered circuits is that your eyes are always going to wander. What if the works carried out are fine but the rest of it is poor, do you turn a blind eye. Surely these works weren't notifiable anyway.
 
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Lets not get the MWC certificate mixed up with my membership of NICEIC. The DIYers work doesn't need notifying. You asked why are NICEIC involved that because I use their online certification system.

I believe it needs a Minor Works Certificate because my copy of the wiring regs say "The Minor Works Certificate is intended to be used for additions and alterations to an installation that do not extend to the provision of a new circuit. Examples include the addition of socket-outlets".

I accept that NICEIC won't accept their system being used for 3rd party work. If you have another suggestion other than doing an EICR, I'm all ears.
 
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westward10 said:
The only way is to carry out an EICR ideally on the whole installation, the problem with limiting to the altered circuits is that your eyes are always going to wander. What if the works carried out are fine but the rest of it is poor, do you turn a blind eye. Surely these works weren't notifiable anyway.
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I haven't said the work was notifiable. I was answering a question as to why I use NICEIC, one reason is for notifying work, but not in this case.
Section D of an EICR specifies the areas to be covered in the report and those that are not. So I can't see why the report can't be produced just covering the alter circuits and ZE, prospective fault current and RCD operation times.
 
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There is no other option. It may be a commercial decision to be giving some sort of certification for other people's DIY work but I would personally recommend you steer clear of it, I can see why the NIC take a dim view on it.
 
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Chris Hex said:
I haven't said the work was notifiable. I was answering a question as to why I use NICEIC, one reason is for notifying work, but not in this case.
Section D of an EICR specifies the areas to be covered in the report and those that are not. So I can't see why the report can't be produced just covering the alter circuits and ZE, prospective fault current and RCD operation times.
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Can't you not see the problem with what you are doing.
 
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Murdoch said:
Imho it's best to decline any work that involves testing any diy work........

And how did the NICEIC know what you had done?
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That's probably great advice which I will take on board. The NICEIC online cert system doesn't allow you complete the cert with other peoples information in the box specifying who constructed it. Not knowing they wouldn't issued certs for 3rd party work I asked them why.
 
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An EICR can cover as little or as much of an installation as the inspector agrees with the client.

As for a 3 part signature MWC I've never seen one of those.
 
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Chris Hex

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