Taking action against a cowboy install...

[DNS1]

A couple of months ago my parents had a new kitchen installed. Part of the install involved a new induction hob which meant a new circuit to be added to the board.

Now unfortunately they didn't tell me about anything that was going on, and ended up being talked into having their perfectly good 16th edition board replaced, instead of just sourcing an appropriate MCB or RCBO and connecting the hob circuit to the spare way.

I popped round today and whilst there I thought I'd fix a lightswitch that had been wired backwards for years. Simple enough job (despite half the screws being missing and a couple of wires simply resting against the terminals)

Few things I noticed about their new DB that cause me concern so I'd like another opinion:

- Notices missing from board (no sticker about the non-standard colours, no inspection due sticker, no sticker about testing RCD)
- MCBs labelled incorrectly (house is a little odd in that the 2 RFCs cover each side of the house, rather than upstairs and down, but not labelled as such)
- Both lighting circuits on same RCD
- Hob wired in buried T+E but not protected by RCD at all

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the above are acceptable for a newly installed board are they? It all got me thinking about the whole installation and I'm now a little suspicious about how the initial testing could have been passed, given the fact that at least one lighting circuit clearly had poor connections in a switch.

Unfortunately I've not yet seen the certificates for any of the above work.

What does everyone think about the above? Should I be looking at take some action against this installer?

 

[AP Electrical]

Dual RCD board and hob not protected? Is it a high integrity board?

 

[trev]

I'd be asking firstly for details of their CPS provider to check on whether they're registered. Then I'd be asking about why they felt the need to replace a 16th CU that could quite easily (I assume) had an RCBO fitted, then the stickers, then the testing etc etc. I'd then invite them to come back and test properly and certify and if they don't it's over to Dom Littlewood with them.

 

[Amp David]

Go on, tell us who it was

 

[Welchyboy]

If no ones hurt or dead your complaint will likely fall on deaf ears
take up your questions and concerns with the installer first and see what he has to say for himself

Sounds like just another case of an inexperienced sparky thinking hes doing the right thing with a little bit of knowledge

Probably not intentionally trying to rip you off but he's only seen a 17th edition board in the wooden bay at the college he was working in the week before he was doing your kitchen! Lol

 

[dagrat]

How is the hob wired, it may not require rcd protection?

 

[Amp David]

Tells us in his post, twin and cpc in the wall

 

[dagrat]

Thanks missed that bit, been a long day.

 

[rich.250]

How is the hob wired, it may not require rcd protection?

He says buried twin and earth
Less than 50mm I would assume.
Also if its a cooker control unit with a socket..... Definately requires Rcd.

 

[Knobhead]

Is it your parents wanting to take action or you?

 

[DNS1]

I'm the one who's spotted the faults (they wouldn't have a clue) and am trying to convince them to get it sorted. My mum's a big fan of BBC Rogue Traders so it shouldn't be too hard.

Their new kitchen was from Wickes and installed by one of their sub contractors, so they shouldn't have too much trouble trouble if they complain to Wickes directly.

I'm really miffed about a couple of things really, 1. that the ----ers pushed them into having the perfectly good 16th ed board replaced and 2. the standard of workmanship was crap anyway.

Being a non-apprentice installer, I hate the way we're portrayed and viewed by some of the JIB card holders, but it's bell-ends like this guy who give them even more fuel for the fire!

 

[DNS1]

I'd be asking about why they felt the need to replace a 16th CU that could quite easily (I assume) had an RCBO fitted

Board was a fairly standard Wylex with single RCD, installed about 15 years ago. Can't see how they'd have had any trouble picking up an MCB or RCBO for it.

 

[AP Electrical]

I'm the one who's spotted the faults (they wouldn't have a clue) and am trying to convince them to get it sorted. My mum's a big fan of BBC Rogue Traders so it shouldn't be too hard.

Their new kitchen was from Wickes and installed by one of their sub contractors, so they shouldn't have too much trouble trouble if they complain to Wickes directly.

I'm really miffed about a couple of things really, 1. that the ----ers pushed them into having the perfectly good 16th ed board replaced and 2. the standard of workmanship was crap anyway.

Being a non-apprentice installer, I hate the way we're portrayed and viewed by some of the JIB card holders, but it's bell-ends like this guy who give them even more fuel for the fire!

How has he bypassed RCD for hob ?

 

[Knobhead]

Well you’ve answered my question but I’ll hang fire until you’ve answered the rest.

 

[DNS1]

I'm not sure if it's a high integrity board or not.

Out of interest, what would be the benefit of running the hob on a high integrity circuit rather than just having it on an RCD? I thought high integrity was just for safety critical circuits (fire alarms, medical kit etc)

 

[AP Electrical]

If he used a dual RCD board then leaving the hob of the RCD is more difficult than connecting it properly, reason I said hi integ was he could connect onto third neutral bar this way thus removing RCD protection.

 

[Amp David]

Non RCD circuits can be for anything you want them to be.

On all my flexible dual RCD CUs I always split the circuit between the 2 RCDs and however many spare way are left get put off the main switch. I then hope that next time a new circuit is added they use an RCBO, I hate the use of dual RCDs covering your circuits

 

[sparks1973]

A couple of months ago my parents had a new kitchen installed. Part of the install involved a new induction hob which meant a new circuit to be added to the board.

Now unfortunately they didn't tell me about anything that was going on, and ended up being talked into having their perfectly good 16th edition board replaced, instead of just sourcing an appropriate MCB or RCBO and connecting the hob circuit to the spare way.

I popped round today and whilst there I thought I'd fix a lightswitch that had been wired backwards for years. Simple enough job (despite half the screws being missing and a couple of wires simply resting against the terminals)

Few things I noticed about their new DB that cause me concern so I'd like another opinion:

- Notices missing from board (no sticker about the non-standard colours, no inspection due sticker, no sticker about testing RCD)
- MCBs labelled incorrectly (house is a little odd in that the 2 RFCs cover each side of the house, rather than upstairs and down, but not labelled as such)
- Both lighting circuits on same RCD
- Hob wired in buried T+E but not protected by RCD at all

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the above are acceptable for a newly installed board are they? It all got me thinking about the whole installation and I'm now a little suspicious about how the initial testing could have been passed, given the fact that at least one lighting circuit clearly had poor connections in a switch.

Unfortunately I've not yet seen the certificates for any of the above work.

What does everyone think about the above? Should I be looking at take some action against this installer?

well i`d give lack of identification of circuits and general lack of notices/info as a (3)...that cable buried thing with no RCD..is (2)/(3)...seems like its mainly a requires improvement thing here.....but it is crap really....you install to the edition in place at the time....not the case here by the sounds of it.......kitchen fitters again maybe...trying their hand at leccy....

 

[sparks1973]

has the bonding been upgraded in line with 17th?
whats the earthing arrangements?

 

[Des 56]

Taking action against a cowboy install

You have 2 chances of anyone giving a monkeys,they are slim and none at all

You want to hope they are not registered with Nicy,your chances would be zilch

 

[sparks1973]

Taking action against a cowboy install

You have 2 chances of anyone giving a monkeys,they are slim and none at all

You want to hope they are not registered with Nicy,your chances would be zilch

and the others..lol...

 

[Knobhead]

There’s something not right here, you’re a DI and yet you can’t identify what type of board it is. The faults you list are minor little niggles except the cooker / RCD issue, that you don’t give a clear answer on.
I’m thinking this is just sour grapes because mummy got some one else in. If she’s been waiting years for you to sort a light switch, I can’t say I blame her.

 

[AP Electrical]

There’s something not right here, you’re a DI and yet you can’t identify what type of board it is. The faults you list are minor little niggles except the cooker / RCD issue, that you don’t give a clear answer on.
I’m thinking this is just sour grapes because mummy got some one else in. If she’s been waiting years for you to sort a light switch, I can’t say I blame her.

fair point, lacking clarity on the big issue with the RCD... And for that reason I'm out...

 

[DNS1]

Not a very nice post Tony...

1. I've not had chance to open up the board and I don't have x-ray vision. I just noticed a few things when I switched the power off to do the light switch.
2. The light switch was not exactly high on the list of priorities... It worked, it was just upside down...
3. I've given as much detail as I can about the cooker/RCD issue. If I had more details at the moment, I'd give them.
4. The main issue is I fail to see how the installation could have passed the initial verification going by the state of the switch I took off this afternoon (2 lives resting, rather than being screwed into the terminals. Makes me wonder if it's been tested at all.
5. The work didn't need doing in the first place, there was a perfectly good board in place.
6. Even if the work DID need doing, I couldn't have done it anyway for several reasons (including the fact that I'm not registered...)

 

[DNS1]

I'm not sure how much more clarification you want regarding the RCD/cooker issue...

The cable is:

- buried in a wall at less than 50mm depth
- not armoured
- not in earthed conduit
- not mechanically protected

Someone please explain where in the regs it says that this is permitted without RCD protection

 

[tigerpaul]

You don't need to disconnect and inspect every single accessory on an inspection. That's probably why the light switch wasn't picked up.
They should have labelled and stickered the board though.
Do you have a copy of there test results?

 

[AP Electrical]

DNS1 have you had the cover of the cu? Just getting a bit confused as to what you've found regarding lack of RCD protection.

 

[DNS1]

You don't need to disconnect and inspect every single accessory on an inspection. That's probably why the light switch wasn't picked up.

I'm just surprised it passed it's R1+R2 in the state it was in.

Certificates are around somewhere, not seen them myself though.

 

[DNS1]

DNS1 have you had the cover of the cu? Just getting a bit confused as to what you've found regarding lack of RCD protection.

No. Not removed the cover at all (board is at the back of a cupboard and removing the cover would require emptying it's contents)

Basically there are 2 non-RCD'd circuits. One is garage (armoured) the other is the hob. The rest of the circuits are on the dual RCDs

 

[AP Electrical]

No. Not removed the cover at all (board is at the back of a cupboard and removing the cover would require emptying it's contents)

Basically there are 2 non-RCD'd circuits. One is garage (armoured) the other is the hob. The rest of the circuits are on the dual RCDs

Now it makes sense