Taking action against a cowboy install...

[DNS1]

A couple of months ago my parents had a new kitchen installed. Part of the install involved a new induction hob which meant a new circuit to be added to the board.

Now unfortunately they didn't tell me about anything that was going on, and ended up being talked into having their perfectly good 16th edition board replaced, instead of just sourcing an appropriate MCB or RCBO and connecting the hob circuit to the spare way.

I popped round today and whilst there I thought I'd fix a lightswitch that had been wired backwards for years. Simple enough job (despite half the screws being missing and a couple of wires simply resting against the terminals)

Few things I noticed about their new DB that cause me concern so I'd like another opinion:

- Notices missing from board (no sticker about the non-standard colours, no inspection due sticker, no sticker about testing RCD)
- MCBs labelled incorrectly (house is a little odd in that the 2 RFCs cover each side of the house, rather than upstairs and down, but not labelled as such)
- Both lighting circuits on same RCD
- Hob wired in buried T+E but not protected by RCD at all

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the above are acceptable for a newly installed board are they? It all got me thinking about the whole installation and I'm now a little suspicious about how the initial testing could have been passed, given the fact that at least one lighting circuit clearly had poor connections in a switch.

Unfortunately I've not yet seen the certificates for any of the above work.

What does everyone think about the above? Should I be looking at take some action against this installer?

 

[AP Electrical]

Dual RCD board and hob not protected? Is it a high integrity board?

 

[trev]

I'd be asking firstly for details of their CPS provider to check on whether they're registered. Then I'd be asking about why they felt the need to replace a 16th CU that could quite easily (I assume) had an RCBO fitted, then the stickers, then the testing etc etc. I'd then invite them to come back and test properly and certify and if they don't it's over to Dom Littlewood with them.

 

[Amp David]

Go on, tell us who it was

 

[Welchyboy]

If no ones hurt or dead your complaint will likely fall on deaf ears
take up your questions and concerns with the installer first and see what he has to say for himself

Sounds like just another case of an inexperienced sparky thinking hes doing the right thing with a little bit of knowledge

Probably not intentionally trying to rip you off but he's only seen a 17th edition board in the wooden bay at the college he was working in the week before he was doing your kitchen! Lol

 

[dagrat]

How is the hob wired, it may not require rcd protection?

 

[Amp David]

Tells us in his post, twin and cpc in the wall

 

[dagrat]

Thanks missed that bit, been a long day.

 

[rich.250]

How is the hob wired, it may not require rcd protection?

He says buried twin and earth
Less than 50mm I would assume.
Also if its a cooker control unit with a socket..... Definately requires Rcd.

 

[Knobhead]

Is it your parents wanting to take action or you?

 

[DNS1]

I'm the one who's spotted the faults (they wouldn't have a clue) and am trying to convince them to get it sorted. My mum's a big fan of BBC Rogue Traders so it shouldn't be too hard.

Their new kitchen was from Wickes and installed by one of their sub contractors, so they shouldn't have too much trouble trouble if they complain to Wickes directly.

I'm really miffed about a couple of things really, 1. that the ----ers pushed them into having the perfectly good 16th ed board replaced and 2. the standard of workmanship was crap anyway.

Being a non-apprentice installer, I hate the way we're portrayed and viewed by some of the JIB card holders, but it's bell-ends like this guy who give them even more fuel for the fire!

 

[DNS1]

I'd be asking about why they felt the need to replace a 16th CU that could quite easily (I assume) had an RCBO fitted

Board was a fairly standard Wylex with single RCD, installed about 15 years ago. Can't see how they'd have had any trouble picking up an MCB or RCBO for it.

 

[AP Electrical]

I'm the one who's spotted the faults (they wouldn't have a clue) and am trying to convince them to get it sorted. My mum's a big fan of BBC Rogue Traders so it shouldn't be too hard.

Their new kitchen was from Wickes and installed by one of their sub contractors, so they shouldn't have too much trouble trouble if they complain to Wickes directly.

I'm really miffed about a couple of things really, 1. that the ----ers pushed them into having the perfectly good 16th ed board replaced and 2. the standard of workmanship was crap anyway.

Being a non-apprentice installer, I hate the way we're portrayed and viewed by some of the JIB card holders, but it's bell-ends like this guy who give them even more fuel for the fire!

How has he bypassed RCD for hob ?

 

[Knobhead]

Well you’ve answered my question but I’ll hang fire until you’ve answered the rest.

 

[DNS1]

I'm not sure if it's a high integrity board or not.

Out of interest, what would be the benefit of running the hob on a high integrity circuit rather than just having it on an RCD? I thought high integrity was just for safety critical circuits (fire alarms, medical kit etc)

 

[AP Electrical]

If he used a dual RCD board then leaving the hob of the RCD is more difficult than connecting it properly, reason I said hi integ was he could connect onto third neutral bar this way thus removing RCD protection.

 

[Amp David]

Non RCD circuits can be for anything you want them to be.

On all my flexible dual RCD CUs I always split the circuit between the 2 RCDs and however many spare way are left get put off the main switch. I then hope that next time a new circuit is added they use an RCBO, I hate the use of dual RCDs covering your circuits

 

[sparks1973]

A couple of months ago my parents had a new kitchen installed. Part of the install involved a new induction hob which meant a new circuit to be added to the board.

Now unfortunately they didn't tell me about anything that was going on, and ended up being talked into having their perfectly good 16th edition board replaced, instead of just sourcing an appropriate MCB or RCBO and connecting the hob circuit to the spare way.

I popped round today and whilst there I thought I'd fix a lightswitch that had been wired backwards for years. Simple enough job (despite half the screws being missing and a couple of wires simply resting against the terminals)

Few things I noticed about their new DB that cause me concern so I'd like another opinion:

- Notices missing from board (no sticker about the non-standard colours, no inspection due sticker, no sticker about testing RCD)
- MCBs labelled incorrectly (house is a little odd in that the 2 RFCs cover each side of the house, rather than upstairs and down, but not labelled as such)
- Both lighting circuits on same RCD
- Hob wired in buried T+E but not protected by RCD at all

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the above are acceptable for a newly installed board are they? It all got me thinking about the whole installation and I'm now a little suspicious about how the initial testing could have been passed, given the fact that at least one lighting circuit clearly had poor connections in a switch.

Unfortunately I've not yet seen the certificates for any of the above work.

What does everyone think about the above? Should I be looking at take some action against this installer?

well i`d give lack of identification of circuits and general lack of notices/info as a (3)...that cable buried thing with no RCD..is (2)/(3)...seems like its mainly a requires improvement thing here.....but it is crap really....you install to the edition in place at the time....not the case here by the sounds of it.......kitchen fitters again maybe...trying their hand at leccy....

 

[sparks1973]

has the bonding been upgraded in line with 17th?
whats the earthing arrangements?

 

[Des 56]

Taking action against a cowboy install

You have 2 chances of anyone giving a monkeys,they are slim and none at all

You want to hope they are not registered with Nicy,your chances would be zilch

 

[sparks1973]

Taking action against a cowboy install

You have 2 chances of anyone giving a monkeys,they are slim and none at all

You want to hope they are not registered with Nicy,your chances would be zilch

and the others..lol...

 

[Knobhead]

There’s something not right here, you’re a DI and yet you can’t identify what type of board it is. The faults you list are minor little niggles except the cooker / RCD issue, that you don’t give a clear answer on.
I’m thinking this is just sour grapes because mummy got some one else in. If she’s been waiting years for you to sort a light switch, I can’t say I blame her.

 

[AP Electrical]

There’s something not right here, you’re a DI and yet you can’t identify what type of board it is. The faults you list are minor little niggles except the cooker / RCD issue, that you don’t give a clear answer on.
I’m thinking this is just sour grapes because mummy got some one else in. If she’s been waiting years for you to sort a light switch, I can’t say I blame her.

fair point, lacking clarity on the big issue with the RCD... And for that reason I'm out...

 

[DNS1]

Not a very nice post Tony...

1. I've not had chance to open up the board and I don't have x-ray vision. I just noticed a few things when I switched the power off to do the light switch.
2. The light switch was not exactly high on the list of priorities... It worked, it was just upside down...
3. I've given as much detail as I can about the cooker/RCD issue. If I had more details at the moment, I'd give them.
4. The main issue is I fail to see how the installation could have passed the initial verification going by the state of the switch I took off this afternoon (2 lives resting, rather than being screwed into the terminals. Makes me wonder if it's been tested at all.
5. The work didn't need doing in the first place, there was a perfectly good board in place.
6. Even if the work DID need doing, I couldn't have done it anyway for several reasons (including the fact that I'm not registered...)

 

[DNS1]

I'm not sure how much more clarification you want regarding the RCD/cooker issue...

The cable is:

- buried in a wall at less than 50mm depth
- not armoured
- not in earthed conduit
- not mechanically protected

Someone please explain where in the regs it says that this is permitted without RCD protection

 

[tigerpaul]

You don't need to disconnect and inspect every single accessory on an inspection. That's probably why the light switch wasn't picked up.
They should have labelled and stickered the board though.
Do you have a copy of there test results?

 

[AP Electrical]

DNS1 have you had the cover of the cu? Just getting a bit confused as to what you've found regarding lack of RCD protection.

 

[DNS1]

You don't need to disconnect and inspect every single accessory on an inspection. That's probably why the light switch wasn't picked up.

I'm just surprised it passed it's R1+R2 in the state it was in.

Certificates are around somewhere, not seen them myself though.

 

[DNS1]

DNS1 have you had the cover of the cu? Just getting a bit confused as to what you've found regarding lack of RCD protection.

No. Not removed the cover at all (board is at the back of a cupboard and removing the cover would require emptying it's contents)

Basically there are 2 non-RCD'd circuits. One is garage (armoured) the other is the hob. The rest of the circuits are on the dual RCDs

 

[AP Electrical]

No. Not removed the cover at all (board is at the back of a cupboard and removing the cover would require emptying it's contents)

Basically there are 2 non-RCD'd circuits. One is garage (armoured) the other is the hob. The rest of the circuits are on the dual RCDs

Now it makes sense

 

[trev]

I think you need to go round there and find out exactly what's what mate, take a look at any certs and get the cover off the CU just for a look. Once you find out the above come back and get some advice, it's a bit confusing as to what's happening here from your posts so let's have something concrete to go on first.
Once you get this you could always ring the installers and ask in a friendly manner at first (as if you know nowt, that's my favourite trick) then if and when you get flim flam off them you can then hit em with regs and they're on the back foot already.

 

[sparks1973]

You don't need to disconnect and inspect every single accessory on an inspection. That's probably why the light switch wasn't picked up.
They should have labelled and stickered the board though.
Do you have a copy of there test results?

no...first you `sample`...say 10% as a starting point..then move on....if you smell fish...or just something don`t feel right...then you up the ante....say 50%....i will always go for recent work done first in a EICR....or if theres an odd front that don`t match the others....same for other accessories......even so...you can usually get a `feeling` that something just aint right before you even get through the door.....its like a gut feeling....and usually its right...

 

[sparks1973]

No. Not removed the cover at all (board is at the back of a cupboard and removing the cover would require emptying it's contents)

Basically there are 2 non-RCD'd circuits. One is garage (armoured) the other is the hob. The rest of the circuits are on the dual RCDs

you mean like the beans and soup hoard?..lol...

 

[Deleted member 9648]

no...first you `sample`...say 10% as a starting point..then move on....if you smell fish...or just something don`t feel right...then you up the ante....say 50%....i will always go for recent work done first in a EICR....or if theres an odd front that don`t match the others....same for other accessories......even so...you can usually get a `feeling` that something just aint right before you even get through the door.....its like a gut feeling....and usually its right...

The job was a CU change and kitchen....not a full EICR.
Reading this thread it sounds like an over reaction.....who checks every accessory in a house for a CU change and kitchen refurb?
There's far too many jumping on the 'COWBOY' bandwaggon as soon as they come across some minor issues.....most of the those crying 'COWBOY' dont know what they are talking about.

Anyone seen this months PE mag?....there's a muppet in there crying 'COWBOY' cos he's been to a job where.... (OMG)! .... there's no 'bonding' to the back boxes....(assume he means earthing link )....and no 'sheathing' over the plastered in T&E's....clearly a self appointed expert who knows sweet FA as neither is actually a requirement. In fairness the letter is about lack of certs and part P....but I get sick to death of the frequent shouts of 'COWBOY' by the self appointed electrical police who seem to base their knowledge of the 'regs' on something other than Bs 7671.

DNS1.....surely your parents would have at least consulted you...(as their offspring and an electrical expert).....before shelling out their hard earned on the advise of other electricians.........seems a bit odd if they didnt?

 

[DNS1]

DNS1.....surely your parents would have at least consulted you...

Lol, you'd have thought so... But no, my family never see any good in their own kind!

Maybe I am being a bit picky about the poor connection in the switch, maybe it wouldn't be picked up by the initial tests.

The main issue for me is the lack of RCD on the hob, especially as the hob is the reason the electrics required any work at all!

Maybe not so much a "cowboy" just a rip off merchant who took advantage of the situation in order to sell and fit a new board.

 

[sparks1973]

The job was a CU change and kitchen....not a full EICR.
Reading this thread it sounds like an over reaction.....who checks every accessory in a house for a CU change and kitchen refurb?
There's far too many jumping on the 'COWBOY' bandwaggon as soon as they come across some minor issues.....most of the those crying 'COWBOY' dont know what they are talking about.

Anyone seen this months PE mag?....there's a muppet in there crying 'COWBOY' cos he's been to a job where.... (OMG)! .... there's no 'bonding' to the back boxes....(assume he means earthing link )....and no 'sheathing' over the plastered in T&E's....clearly a self appointed expert who knows sweet FA as neither is actually a requirement. In fairness the letter is about lack of certs and part P....but I get sick to death of the frequent shouts of 'COWBOY' by the self appointed electrical police who seem to base their knowledge of the 'regs' on something other than Bs 7671.

DNS1.....surely your parents would have at least consulted you...(as their offspring and an electrical expert).....before shelling out their hard earned on the advise of other electricians.........seems a bit odd if they didnt?

never said it was a full eicr....DID I!!

 

[mackers]

just go buy an rcbo and put yourself out of your misery!lol

 

[PEG]

Nice suggestion,mackers. My parents are retired and we always struggle for gift ideas at Christmas and birthdays. An RCBO seems a neat,practical and worthy offering.

 

[sparks1973]

Nice suggestion,mackers. My parents are retired and we always struggle for gift ideas at Christmas and birthdays. An RCBO seems a neat,practical and worthy offering.

nearly as good as the guy i used to work with when in fabrications...he got his cousins son an angle grinder for his birthday....think the boy was about 7....
or theres the time that a lad called john riley who used to work at this place i was at...well, he went and bought his Mrs a vac for her birthday.....and at xmas got her a washing machine...lol....

 

[trev]

nearly as good as the guy i used to work with when in fabrications...he got his cousins son an angle grinder for his birthday....think the boy was about 7....
or theres the time that a lad called john riley who used to work at this place i was at...well, he went and bought his Mrs a vac for her birthday.....and at xmas got her a washing machine...lol....

I bought our youngest son a jigsaw for his 3rd birthday, wife went mental when he cut one of his fingers off with it

 

[tigerpaul]

My missus ASKED for a little rechargeable Hoover for her birthday!

My parents have bought me tools for Xmas before but their usually cheap ones that I wouldn't go for and I have to pretend to be over the moon haha!

 

[DNS1]

Went over to my parents place today to do the minor work I mentioned in another thread (fusing and extending a spur to fit a light)

I disconnected the downstairs RFC, connected up the new light and then went to do the initial testing for the circuit.

Bearing in mind that the CU was new a few months ago... I did NOT expect to find no continuity between ends of the ring! I certainly did not expect to find that the installer, in addition to the other issues, has FABRICATED his continuity figures on the certificate!

Also found various other mistakes, would love to see how many you lot find...

 

[ayjay]

pics of the c/u would be nice

 

[DNS1]

pics of the c/u would be nice

Not got any pics of the installed CU unfortunatly. To be fair, inside it's a reasonably neat installation and there's not much that can be seen.

It's one of these MK Sentry 10 Way Dual RCD Board with 2 RCDs & 10 MCBs | NoLinkingToThis

Cheap and flimsy plastic...

 

[Amp David]

Good old EEBADS hey, when was this cert done.

 

[DNS1]

Good old EEBADS hey, when was this cert done.

Is THAT what it says?! I couldn't read the writing at all? Excuse me for being naive, but what does it mean?!

As I understand from a quick google search, it's a pre-17th edition term. Is reference method "3" a pre-17th edition thing as well?! 5 second disconnection for 6A finals?

 

[onfire25]

Went over to my parents place today to do the minor work I mentioned in another thread (fusing and extending a spur to fit a light)

I disconnected the downstairs RFC, connected up the new light and then went to do the initial testing for the circuit.

Bearing in mind that the CU was new a few months ago... I did NOT expect to find no continuity between ends of the ring! I certainly did not expect to find that the installer, in addition to the other issues, has FABRICATED his continuity figures on the certificate!

Also found various other mistakes, would love to see how many you lot find...

View attachment 15542
View attachment 15543

looks like he went a bit tick happy on the schedule of inspections......ticked segregation of safety circuits!!......your parents got life support at their house?!.......doesnt fill me with confidence if they incorrectly complete that tick part alone!! ticked mixed colour wiring too and you said they have put no stickers on board!!......i would be on the phone ripping a new arse hole !!

 

[DNS1]

I was suspicious about the install before (see the rest of the thread!) but the thing that REALLY worries me is that he's clearly made up figures for the continuity of that ring final. I got an infinity reading earlier when I did the tests, it's not like cabling as corroded over time, he's just made it up!

I've taken the 2 legs of the ring and stuck them on a 16A mcb (robbed from the un-used immersion heater!) so at least I know it's safe for now...

If the NICEIC aren't interested in the complaint, we can go back to Wickes who sub-contracted the guy... I'd like to hear what they have to say...

 

[Skyba]

My missus ASKED for a little rechargeable Hoover for her birthday!

My parents have bought me tools for Xmas before but their usually cheap ones that I wouldn't go for and I have to pretend to be over the moon haha!

I'Ve asked for a fluke 1653b from my parentals for Xmas, I've got about as much of a chance of getting it as the OP has of getting said sparky to come back and label the cu.

 

[onfire25]

I was suspicious about the install before (see the rest of the thread!) but the thing that REALLY worries me is that he's clearly made up figures for the continuity of that ring final. I got an infinity reading earlier when I did the tests, it's not like cabling as corroded over time, he's just made it up!

I've taken the 2 legs of the ring and stuck them on a 16A mcb (robbed from the un-used immersion heater!) so at least I know it's safe for now...

If the NICEIC aren't interested in the complaint, we can go back to Wickes who sub-contracted the guy... I'd like to hear what they have to say...

What about dragging the niceic through the press mills!.....body happy to rob sparks of their money but when it comes to the crunch......what are they good for??.....might make jo public wake up to how much of a chocolate tea pot they are!!!