Taking action against a cowboy install...

[DNS1]

A couple of months ago my parents had a new kitchen installed. Part of the install involved a new induction hob which meant a new circuit to be added to the board.

Now unfortunately they didn't tell me about anything that was going on, and ended up being talked into having their perfectly good 16th edition board replaced, instead of just sourcing an appropriate MCB or RCBO and connecting the hob circuit to the spare way.

I popped round today and whilst there I thought I'd fix a lightswitch that had been wired backwards for years. Simple enough job (despite half the screws being missing and a couple of wires simply resting against the terminals)

Few things I noticed about their new DB that cause me concern so I'd like another opinion:

- Notices missing from board (no sticker about the non-standard colours, no inspection due sticker, no sticker about testing RCD)
- MCBs labelled incorrectly (house is a little odd in that the 2 RFCs cover each side of the house, rather than upstairs and down, but not labelled as such)
- Both lighting circuits on same RCD
- Hob wired in buried T+E but not protected by RCD at all

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the above are acceptable for a newly installed board are they? It all got me thinking about the whole installation and I'm now a little suspicious about how the initial testing could have been passed, given the fact that at least one lighting circuit clearly had poor connections in a switch.

Unfortunately I've not yet seen the certificates for any of the above work.

What does everyone think about the above? Should I be looking at take some action against this installer?

 

[trev]

I think you need to go round there and find out exactly what's what mate, take a look at any certs and get the cover off the CU just for a look. Once you find out the above come back and get some advice, it's a bit confusing as to what's happening here from your posts so let's have something concrete to go on first.
Once you get this you could always ring the installers and ask in a friendly manner at first (as if you know nowt, that's my favourite trick) then if and when you get flim flam off them you can then hit em with regs and they're on the back foot already.

 

[sparks1973]

You don't need to disconnect and inspect every single accessory on an inspection. That's probably why the light switch wasn't picked up.
They should have labelled and stickered the board though.
Do you have a copy of there test results?

no...first you `sample`...say 10% as a starting point..then move on....if you smell fish...or just something don`t feel right...then you up the ante....say 50%....i will always go for recent work done first in a EICR....or if theres an odd front that don`t match the others....same for other accessories......even so...you can usually get a `feeling` that something just aint right before you even get through the door.....its like a gut feeling....and usually its right...

 

[sparks1973]

No. Not removed the cover at all (board is at the back of a cupboard and removing the cover would require emptying it's contents)

Basically there are 2 non-RCD'd circuits. One is garage (armoured) the other is the hob. The rest of the circuits are on the dual RCDs

you mean like the beans and soup hoard?..lol...

 

[Deleted member 9648]

no...first you `sample`...say 10% as a starting point..then move on....if you smell fish...or just something don`t feel right...then you up the ante....say 50%....i will always go for recent work done first in a EICR....or if theres an odd front that don`t match the others....same for other accessories......even so...you can usually get a `feeling` that something just aint right before you even get through the door.....its like a gut feeling....and usually its right...

The job was a CU change and kitchen....not a full EICR.
Reading this thread it sounds like an over reaction.....who checks every accessory in a house for a CU change and kitchen refurb?
There's far too many jumping on the 'COWBOY' bandwaggon as soon as they come across some minor issues.....most of the those crying 'COWBOY' dont know what they are talking about.

Anyone seen this months PE mag?....there's a muppet in there crying 'COWBOY' cos he's been to a job where.... (OMG)! .... there's no 'bonding' to the back boxes....(assume he means earthing link )....and no 'sheathing' over the plastered in T&E's....clearly a self appointed expert who knows sweet FA as neither is actually a requirement. In fairness the letter is about lack of certs and part P....but I get sick to death of the frequent shouts of 'COWBOY' by the self appointed electrical police who seem to base their knowledge of the 'regs' on something other than Bs 7671.

DNS1.....surely your parents would have at least consulted you...(as their offspring and an electrical expert).....before shelling out their hard earned on the advise of other electricians.........seems a bit odd if they didnt?

 

[DNS1]

DNS1.....surely your parents would have at least consulted you...

Lol, you'd have thought so... But no, my family never see any good in their own kind!

Maybe I am being a bit picky about the poor connection in the switch, maybe it wouldn't be picked up by the initial tests.

The main issue for me is the lack of RCD on the hob, especially as the hob is the reason the electrics required any work at all!

Maybe not so much a "cowboy" just a rip off merchant who took advantage of the situation in order to sell and fit a new board.

 

[sparks1973]

The job was a CU change and kitchen....not a full EICR.
Reading this thread it sounds like an over reaction.....who checks every accessory in a house for a CU change and kitchen refurb?
There's far too many jumping on the 'COWBOY' bandwaggon as soon as they come across some minor issues.....most of the those crying 'COWBOY' dont know what they are talking about.

Anyone seen this months PE mag?....there's a muppet in there crying 'COWBOY' cos he's been to a job where.... (OMG)! .... there's no 'bonding' to the back boxes....(assume he means earthing link )....and no 'sheathing' over the plastered in T&E's....clearly a self appointed expert who knows sweet FA as neither is actually a requirement. In fairness the letter is about lack of certs and part P....but I get sick to death of the frequent shouts of 'COWBOY' by the self appointed electrical police who seem to base their knowledge of the 'regs' on something other than Bs 7671.

DNS1.....surely your parents would have at least consulted you...(as their offspring and an electrical expert).....before shelling out their hard earned on the advise of other electricians.........seems a bit odd if they didnt?

never said it was a full eicr....DID I!!

 

[mackers]

just go buy an rcbo and put yourself out of your misery!lol

 

[PEG]

Nice suggestion,mackers. My parents are retired and we always struggle for gift ideas at Christmas and birthdays. An RCBO seems a neat,practical and worthy offering.

 

[sparks1973]

Nice suggestion,mackers. My parents are retired and we always struggle for gift ideas at Christmas and birthdays. An RCBO seems a neat,practical and worthy offering.

nearly as good as the guy i used to work with when in fabrications...he got his cousins son an angle grinder for his birthday....think the boy was about 7....
or theres the time that a lad called john riley who used to work at this place i was at...well, he went and bought his Mrs a vac for her birthday.....and at xmas got her a washing machine...lol....

 

[trev]

nearly as good as the guy i used to work with when in fabrications...he got his cousins son an angle grinder for his birthday....think the boy was about 7....
or theres the time that a lad called john riley who used to work at this place i was at...well, he went and bought his Mrs a vac for her birthday.....and at xmas got her a washing machine...lol....

I bought our youngest son a jigsaw for his 3rd birthday, wife went mental when he cut one of his fingers off with it

 

[tigerpaul]

My missus ASKED for a little rechargeable Hoover for her birthday!

My parents have bought me tools for Xmas before but their usually cheap ones that I wouldn't go for and I have to pretend to be over the moon haha!

 

[DNS1]

Went over to my parents place today to do the minor work I mentioned in another thread (fusing and extending a spur to fit a light)

I disconnected the downstairs RFC, connected up the new light and then went to do the initial testing for the circuit.

Bearing in mind that the CU was new a few months ago... I did NOT expect to find no continuity between ends of the ring! I certainly did not expect to find that the installer, in addition to the other issues, has FABRICATED his continuity figures on the certificate!

Also found various other mistakes, would love to see how many you lot find...

 

[ayjay]

pics of the c/u would be nice

 

[DNS1]

pics of the c/u would be nice

Not got any pics of the installed CU unfortunatly. To be fair, inside it's a reasonably neat installation and there's not much that can be seen.

It's one of these MK Sentry 10 Way Dual RCD Board with 2 RCDs & 10 MCBs | NoLinkingToThis

Cheap and flimsy plastic...

 

[Amp David]

Good old EEBADS hey, when was this cert done.

 

[DNS1]

Good old EEBADS hey, when was this cert done.

Is THAT what it says?! I couldn't read the writing at all? Excuse me for being naive, but what does it mean?!

As I understand from a quick google search, it's a pre-17th edition term. Is reference method "3" a pre-17th edition thing as well?! 5 second disconnection for 6A finals?

 

[onfire25]

Went over to my parents place today to do the minor work I mentioned in another thread (fusing and extending a spur to fit a light)

I disconnected the downstairs RFC, connected up the new light and then went to do the initial testing for the circuit.

Bearing in mind that the CU was new a few months ago... I did NOT expect to find no continuity between ends of the ring! I certainly did not expect to find that the installer, in addition to the other issues, has FABRICATED his continuity figures on the certificate!

Also found various other mistakes, would love to see how many you lot find...

View attachment 15542
View attachment 15543

looks like he went a bit tick happy on the schedule of inspections......ticked segregation of safety circuits!!......your parents got life support at their house?!.......doesnt fill me with confidence if they incorrectly complete that tick part alone!! ticked mixed colour wiring too and you said they have put no stickers on board!!......i would be on the phone ripping a new arse hole !!

 

[DNS1]

I was suspicious about the install before (see the rest of the thread!) but the thing that REALLY worries me is that he's clearly made up figures for the continuity of that ring final. I got an infinity reading earlier when I did the tests, it's not like cabling as corroded over time, he's just made it up!

I've taken the 2 legs of the ring and stuck them on a 16A mcb (robbed from the un-used immersion heater!) so at least I know it's safe for now...

If the NICEIC aren't interested in the complaint, we can go back to Wickes who sub-contracted the guy... I'd like to hear what they have to say...

 

[Skyba]

My missus ASKED for a little rechargeable Hoover for her birthday!

My parents have bought me tools for Xmas before but their usually cheap ones that I wouldn't go for and I have to pretend to be over the moon haha!

I'Ve asked for a fluke 1653b from my parentals for Xmas, I've got about as much of a chance of getting it as the OP has of getting said sparky to come back and label the cu.

 

[onfire25]

I was suspicious about the install before (see the rest of the thread!) but the thing that REALLY worries me is that he's clearly made up figures for the continuity of that ring final. I got an infinity reading earlier when I did the tests, it's not like cabling as corroded over time, he's just made it up!

I've taken the 2 legs of the ring and stuck them on a 16A mcb (robbed from the un-used immersion heater!) so at least I know it's safe for now...

If the NICEIC aren't interested in the complaint, we can go back to Wickes who sub-contracted the guy... I'd like to hear what they have to say...

What about dragging the niceic through the press mills!.....body happy to rob sparks of their money but when it comes to the crunch......what are they good for??.....might make jo public wake up to how much of a chocolate tea pot they are!!!

 

[DNS1]

I'Ve asked for a fluke 1653b from my parentals for Xmas, I've got about as much of a chance of getting it as the OP has of getting said sparky to come back and label the cu.

Shame, you won't be getting one!

That bloke has as much chance of being allowed back in as I have becoming a ballerina!

 

[Skyba]

All the guy will say is you've obviously been tampering with the circuits as you have carried out your own test on the circuit so you've obviously caused the fault. You know this isn't true but as he's the registered guy and you're not he's the only one of the two of you who should be tampering with the circuit.

 

[DNS1]

All the guy will say is you've obviously been tampering with the circuits as you have carried out your own test on the circuit so you've obviously caused the fault. You know this isn't true but as he's the registered guy and you're not he's the only one of the two of you who should be tampering with the circuit.

If the NIC send an inspector out to check, nothing will hide the lack of stickers, the non-RCD protected cooker circuit, the badly completed forms and the lack of ring continuity...

The fact that I've done minor works (spur on a circuit in a non-special location) won't make a difference will it?

 

[onfire25]

All the guy will say is you've obviously been tampering with the circuits as you have carried out your own test on the circuit so you've obviously caused the fault. You know this isn't true but as he's the registered guy and you're not he's the only one of the two of you who should be tampering with the circuit.

As harsh as that sounds......too true

 

[onfire25]

If the NIC send an inspector out to check, nothing will hide the lack of stickers, the non-RCD protected cooker circuit, the badly completed forms and the lack of ring continuity...

The fact that I've done minor works (spur on a circuit in a non-special location) won't make a difference will it?

Ask the man in the know-how......mr tony cable at the niceic.....mobile....***********......call.....ask him.....explain......scan and email him certs......see what he has to say.......i got this number from him last May directly.

 

[Skyba]

If the NIC send an inspector out to check, nothing will hide the lack of stickers, the non-RCD protected cooker circuit, the badly completed forms and the lack of ring continuity...

The fact that I've done minor works (spur on a circuit in a non-special location) won't make a difference will it?

Not putting stickers on the cu is a small thing which they would just brush aside but the no rcd issue would be more serious but he would still say that you'GE tampered with the circuit, he could just say that the circuit was rcd protected when he left the job but the circuits in the house have been worked on since he left and you could have tampered with his circuits also. As for the test results nobody can really prove what he's done wrong apart from the things he's ticked which he shouldn't have.

This goes along with a discussion I was having on another thread about domestic installer being allowed to work but are they really capable. Not all domestic installers are as silly as this one but if everyone was made to do the full 4 years there would be far less silly things like this happening.

I'm not even qualified yet I'm waiting for my NVQ to be signed off yet I think I have a better grasp of things than this guy but I still don't think I'm ready to go it alone yet.

 

[Skyba]

Ask the man in the know-how......mr tony cable at the niceic.....mobile....***********......call.....ask him.....explain......scan and email him certs......see what he has to say.......i got this number from him last May directly.

Ahh tony and Dave, if you don't know who these are you've not lived, I've spent hours in classrooms listening to Dave's droning lol

 

[onfire25]

Not putting stickers on the cu is a small thing which they would just brush aside but the no rcd issue would be more serious but he would still say that you'GE tampered with the circuit, he could just say that the circuit was rcd protected when he left the job but the circuits in the house have been worked on since he left and you could have tampered with his circuits also. As for the test results nobody can really prove what he's done wrong apart from the things he's ticked which he shouldn't have.

This goes along with a discussion I was having on another thread about domestic installer being allowed to work but are they really capable. Not all domestic installers are as silly as this one but if everyone was made to do the full 4 years there would be far less silly things like this happening.

I'm not even qualified yet I'm waiting for my NVQ to be signed off yet I think I have a better grasp of things than this guy but I still don't think I'm ready to go it alone yet.

circuit 2 ot the test results is the hob.....noted as unprotected......bloke cant deny that one......got his name written all over it!...lol.....in respect of him saying you tampered with circuit.......prove it!......say he cant count and missed the spur if he wants to be like that!......his cert is worth nothing if full of errors!

 

[Skyba]

True, I've not actually looked at his Certs as I'm on my mobile.

 

[onfire25]

As for the test results nobody can really prove what he's done wrong apart from the things he's ticked which he shouldn't have.

Shows lack of care and attention to detail......if he can mess a simple tick form up then is he really competant!