Unreasonably high invoice bill from an electrician

[AlexanderSmi123]

Good afternoon everyone, I am Alex and I'm new here.

I am posting this to ask for advice with how I should approach this situation.

We called in an electrician, and as confirmed in writing by messages, the original request was to change the socket covers and change lightbulbs through the flat (1 bedroom flat). After completing the job, the electrician sends us an invoice which lists the labour and material costs, and a rough breakdown of the works done. The final bill is OVER £2,000 (almost all of it labour) and lists 30 hours of work. On top of the requested works, it also details a lot of other works, which were not requested nor authorised by us, including various tests and other changes. To make the situation more difficult, we were away during this time as the flat was under renovation and could not confirm what works exactly have been at the time.

Given this extremely unreasonable bill, what is the best way to approach the situation?

Any help would be appreciated, and thank you for your advice.

 

[AlexanderSmi123]

Can I ask something from everyone, given the additional works he claims to have completed without our knowledge or consent (like removing wiring and changing smoke alarms) without providing full details, and involving other people in our flat without our knowledge, is this even legal? Of course I do not want to escalate this to court, however I would also like to know if that is something the electrician should even be worried about, assuming he refuses to be reasonable.

 

[buzzlightyear]

The electrician is not solo, from what I understand he works for a company which is NICEIC Approved. We contacted him directly, and I do not know where the other 3 people came from, nor that there was anyone else involved until the invoice.

This a case where you got spark that works for a company, so to be honest.
You are employing him direct.
So the argument is tell him to reduce your Invoice or if he takes you to court
The he better to explain to a judge if he is employed to a company or other.
Ask him one simple question vat or no vat,and wait.
I do litigation on my part time job.

 

[AlexanderSmi123]

This a case where you got spark that works for a company, so to be honest.
You are employing him direct.
So the argument is tell him to reduce your Invoice or if he takes you to court
The he better to explain to a judge if he is employed to a company or other.
Ask him one simple question vat or no vat,and wait.
I do litigation on my part time job.

He did include +20% VAT to the bill, the invoice has the company name and account details.

 

[buzzlightyear]

He did include +20% VAT to the bill, the invoice has the company name and account details.

His company or other.

 

[James]

I will only work 2 ways

1. formal quotation detailing what work to be done with a (fixed price) or (per hour labour cost and estimated time).
(all new customers will come in this bracket)

2. friendly chat with customer detailing what needs doing, point out the possible pit falls that may be encountered and rough costs if the worst happens.

I do feel sorry for both domestic sparks and there customers as poor communication and other issues can quickly sour what was originally a simple business deal.

hopefully you have not got to a point where the communications are failing, so you need to press on and discover what the issues are on each side of the table and come to an arrangement that you are both comfortable with.
it is likely to be somewhere in the middle of 10 and 30 hours of labour.

keep it to facts and don't let emotions get in the way of coming to an arrangement.

 

[AlexanderSmi123]

I will only work 2 ways

1. formal quotation detailing what work to be done with a (fixed price) or (per hour labour cost and estimated time).
(all new customers will come in this bracket)

2. friendly chat with customer detailing what needs doing, point out the possible pit falls that may be encountered and rough costs if the worst happens.

I do feel sorry for both domestic sparks and there customers as poor communication and other issues can quickly sour what was originally a simple business deal.

hopefully you have not got to a point where the communications are failing, so you need to press on and discover what the issues are on each side of the table and come to an arrangement that you are both comfortable with.
it is likely to be somewhere in the middle of 10 and 30 hours of labour.

keep it to facts and don't let emotions get in the way of coming to an arrangement.

Thank you for the advise James. To be honest considering we originally asked him to only do a small job, change lights and socket covers, even 10 hours seems like is a lot, however I am definitely not an expert here.

 

[AlexanderSmi123]

His company or other.

I am assuming his company, we did not even know he worked for a company until the invoice.

 

[James]

Thank you for the advise James. To be honest considering we originally asked him to only do a small job, change lights and socket covers, even 10 hours seems like is a lot, however I am definitely not an expert here.

It is a bit of a guess and not to be taken literally, just take the spirit of the post and adjust it to suit your particular issues.

I will say however that it can take 30 min to change a single downlight if things don't go well or you encounter a problem.

I would assume it would take me 20 min to change a socket, downlight, light pendant, light switch, fused spur etc. if I was quoting a job.

 

[LukeD]

4 days work seems excessive for the work listed,
£200 material and 30 hours at £60 (guessing here)

It is possible that when changing sockets or lights, a wiring fault was found that needed to be located and repaired or if there are a lot of downlights maybe some of the drivers needed changing.

I would start with a simple email.

Thanks for your invoice,
I am not happy with the invoice amount, the work we asked to be done was

1. change all socket faces to new crabtree white.
2.

It seems the job has taken a lot longer than estimated and i don't understand why.

I did ask for a written quote before the work started but you were unwilling to do so.
when we discussed the works required, i was led to believe that this would be a simple job that wouldn't take too long.

could you please provide me with a complete list of works done and if it was above and beyond the work requested, then could you explain why it was essential to be done without any consultation with myself.

"change all lamps and ensure they are working"


The issue could be this .If THIS was correct then its almost "permission" to carry out any works required ?

 

[westward10]

Sounds like they were fitting LED lamps to old 12v halogen fittings.

 

[James]

"change all lamps and ensure they are working"


The issue could be this .If THIS was correct then its almost "permission" to carry out any works required ?

like I said, follow the spirit of the post, not the exact wording.

 

[MDJ]

However we confirmed the exact scope of works needed in writing.

well lets see a copy, I am always cautious when I see these threads, there is usually 2 sides to everything, lets see the work agreed in writing and then we can give you a proper opinion.

 

[LukeD]

well lets see a copy, I am always cautious when I see these threads, there is usually 2 sides to everything, lets see the work agreed in writing and then we can give you a proper opinion.

same for me ...I get asked about issues a lot and I always say "Sow me the paperwork" . A huge amount of issues are caused by the old "cash in hand " mentality that the customer is also happy to be part of .And very very little paperwork SMS trail . So how can I say "its not good" when in fact its roughly what they asked for and paid for but now have seconds thoughts about.....

 

[Marvo]

You state your location as London. Labour rates are very high there and there's also often parking and other vehicle surcharges so I'd be expecting a hefty labour amount. If his brief was to replace bulbs and get the lights all working that may have involved some fault finding and some fittings converting to LED's etc. Also just to replace the socket facia covers would be as much if not more expensive than complete new sockets if the replacement covers had to be special ordered or are a manufacturer discontinued item. If he converted halogen downlights to LED for example he would have been well within acceptable practices to do a circuit test afterwards if he disturbed the fittings.

Yes on the face of it the bill seems high but there's many reasons it could be more than you were expecting. First step is to ask for a full materials and labour breakdown then discuss it with him from there. Getting resolution to this kind of dispute is all about both parties communicating like grown ups.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Couple of important points, do not refuse to pay his bill, in fact it will support your stance if you make a "Without prejudice" payment of say 20% of his invoice, ask for a detailed breakdown of the works carried out, compare to the original brief and dispute those you disagree with, any correspondence should be by verified e-mail or recorded letter.

 

[LukeD]

Couple of important points, do not refuse to pay his bill, in fact it will support your stance if you make a "Without prejudice" payment of say 20% of his invoice, ask for a detailed breakdown of the works carried out, compare to the original brief and dispute those you disagree with, any correspondence should be by verified e-mail or recorded letter.

This will never get legal..... I WOULD refuse and rightly so. Work has to be agreed . I cannot say to a client its £500 more etc .I've given a quote and thats it .There are a few things that are always mentioned to secure myself of any "hidden issues" .But I would never want to renegade on a quote at all. Its not the done thing . I would agree to pay for what was agreed only .

 

[Risteard]

Actually no, without telling us apparently 3 more people were involved and "helped" him, for which he is also charging a management fee. Although we never explicitly agreed he would work alone, I believed it is reasonable that this is a 1 person job.

Leaving aside the other points it is worth noting that lone working is specifically discouraged by the HSE, so it could be argued that it is never reasonable for something to be a one-man job.

 

[UNG]

Leaving aside the other points it is worth noting that lone working is specifically discouraged by the HSE, so it could be argued that it is never reasonable for something to be a one-man job.

I would suggest a lot depends on how the job / work process is risk assessed
One person to hold the socket and another to tighten the screws isn't really that cost effective

 

[Mike Johnson]

Leaving aside the other points it is worth noting that lone working is specifically discouraged by the HSE, so it could be argued that it is never reasonable for something to be a one-man job.

That guidance has to be taken in context, cleaning out the inside of a tank or down a manhole then yes, changing a light fitting or switch that can be accessed from the ground than no, to go even more HSE wording carry out a Hazard Analysis and risk assessment prior to any work commencing, the HA can be done in ones head to a conclusion that there is no risk, lots of people use the HSE guidance as an excuse to not do something, or make it seem harder than it actually is or would be. Most do not understand the the first step in any work process is the Hazard Analysis, not going straight into the Risk Assessment.

 

[westward10]

I worked for someone who would not tolerate lone working and it isn't just about an accident happening during the work being carried out. Anything can happen like heart attacks, strokes etc... and whilst your colleague may not be able to help medically they can call for assistance.

 

[UNG]

I worked for someone who would not tolerate lone working and it isn't just about an accident happening during the work being carried out. Anything can happen like heart attacks, strokes etc... and whilst your colleague may not be able to help medically they can call for assistance.

Did he always have a passenger when he drove anywhere, was he high risk for heart attacks or strokes!

 

[baldelectrician]

Did he let you know of the cooling off laws- see link?
The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/30/made

If he did not he may be unable to make you pay without a court order

Offer to pay what you think a fair price is (point out the above law) and ask for the certifiactes
He is required to send them- has he sent them?

 

[mainline]

However we confirmed the exact scope of works needed in writing.

#42

let's see a copy, I am always cautious when I see these threads, there is usually 2 sides to everything, let's see the work agreed in writing, and then we can give you a proper opinion.

A redacted copy of the invoice may be helpful.

 

[mainline]

Did he always have a passenger when he drove anywhere, was he high risk for heart attacks or strokes!

You can't compare working in a dusty, hot attic to driving.

 

[pirate]

Is there actually a contract? Until we see the exchange of emails etc we will not be able to judge.
There are so many ways to look at this, but I can't believe any competent electrician would quote, say £500, and then, on finding other remedial works are necessary, plough ahead and up the bill to £2000 without even a phone call to the client. This alone makes me think the electrician is trying it on. After all, if there's no contract, how can he be sure the client will pay the extra?
Lack of communication is key here. I am assuming the electrician did not at any point pick up the phone and ask for approval to additional works.

Yes, he has to be paid...but how much?
Three possible answers, given there is no contract:
1. Quantum lucratus
2. Quantum meruit
3. Agent of necessity, which includes the above 2 points.

No. 3 is so outdated these days given the easy contact via mobile phone or email and only really arises in cases of emergency.

If the "contract" says "do this and that and whatever is necessary to get everything working properly" then the OP is on a sticky wicket...but to plough on to incur vastly more expense than both parties originally envisaged is foolhardy, since a quick call could have clarified things.

 

[Dustydazzler]

2 grand to change a couple face plates and swap out a couple lamps, even for my day rate that seems a tad high

I personally would never allow a very small job ( a single day job ) to spiral up to £2000 without ringing the customer first and then getting confirmation they want me to continue in the form of a short email.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I worked for someone who would not tolerate lone working and it isn't just about an accident happening during the work being carried out. Anything can happen like heart attacks, strokes etc... and whilst your colleague may not be able to help medically they can call for assistance.

Makes you wonder how postman, bus drivers and most couriers cope.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Did he let you know of the cooling off laws- see link?
The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/30/made

That seems to be the sale of goods act, not works.

 

[westward10]

Makes you wonder how postman, bus drivers and most couriers cope.

Cope with what?
My post had a sound argument which is supported by modern working ethics.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Cope with the fact they are working by themselves.