UK 3 phase domestic supply

[John-SJW]

I watched this vid on Youtube. Interesting. They have 3 phase supplies. Does anyone know the cost of upgrading from a single to a 3 phase domestic supply?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7wxNtrorQ&lc=UgyPTN2d89tBByfm4Dx4AaABAg.9CrcYe7x50b9CsC6DnPJKw

 

[davesparks]

Washer fluid? Are you kidding?
All of those do not need an annual service. The onboard computer will tell the driver if and when they need attention.

No I'm not kidding, that will be found on the service list for most vehicles.
Whilst the service may not be annually, which is something you introduced after your initial statement that no servicing is required, servicing will still be required.

It's a complex machine, it will need servicing in order to maintain peak performance and get the best lifespan, they all do.

Manufacturers, and marketing people, will claim that no servicing is required, but that's just bull to make thro products sound good and encourage the culture of obsolescence. If manufacturers can convince you to never have a vehicle serviced then they will be cashing in when your vehicle fails due to lack of servicing.

 

[John-SJW]

EVs are not complex. They are simple with few moving parts.

 

[davesparks]

EVs are not complex. They are simple with few moving parts.

Seriously? Are you really going to try and argue that an EV is a simple machine?

Do please give us your argument for them being a simple machine.

Maybe start with the basics, of the six simple machines which one do you think they are?

 

[nicebutdim]

All mechanical and electrical sytems require some degree of maintenance. Some components may be sealed and "maintenance free", which means throw away and replace complete assembly.

Battery prices fluctate according to market prices for their raw materials.

If Toyota have produced a battery which has proven capacity loss of just 10% over 30 years, that will be an incredible leap forward from current mass produced technology.


I'm not opposed to EVs at all, but having looked (several times over the years) at the numbers I can not come close to making the case for driving one myself.

I'm also not "fond" of owning any type of vehicle as they're a significant drain on income. If there was no need to run a vehicle in order to earn a living and ferry kids around, I'd be happy to get rid of mine and cut my expenditure by a not inconsiderable amount.

I'm happy for anyone to own an EV, but would suggest they look at all angles before making, what is, a significant investment,
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No friction brakes? No hydraulics to operate them? No mechanical steering linkages? No suspension? No bodywork to rust?

I'm really keen to know how their wheels turn on fixed hubs.


In all seriousness I would buy an EV tomorrow if the financial argument came anywhere close to viable. Maybe EVs are great in cities, but below are my requirements which I'd welcome anyone to make a recommendation on:

5 seat estate car.
Daily mileage varies from 20-300 miles.
Live in a hilly area and often tow reasonably heavy loads.

Current vehicle costs around £300 per year in servicing and maintenance and I'll expect one major repair at around £1000 during my ownership, which will probably be 8-10 years. Average mpg during my ownership is showing as 57.7 and costs £30-£40 each week to fuel. It's 5 years old and bought recently at 80k miles for £4k.

Previous vehicle was very similar and crunching all the numbers I've never managed to find any way of running an EV for similar annual costs - not even in the same ball park.

 

[davesparks]

Don't forget that realistically to own an EV you need a driveway.
Or like the guy round the corner from me you have to run a lead out of your window, over the pavement and into your EV at the side of the road.
He also 'reserves' the part of the street directly in front of his house with pallets when he goes out in the EV otherwise someone else will park there and he won't be able to charge it at all.

If I had an EV I'd have to run a lead out of a window and across our neighbours garden into the communal parking area (again if I've managed to get in to it and haven't ended up parking on the street down the road somewhere)

In a few weeks I'm moving to a top floor flat,

Plus anyone, like me, who is renting likely won't be able to have a charger installed, or even an outdoor socket.

So yeah, EVs are great for those people who own houses with driveways.

A far better reduction in pollution happened when everyone started working from home in March than I think EVs will ever bring about.

 

[John-SJW]

EVs are approaching the price of ICE cars. Once parity, then they will just take off. Look at the Tony Seba video.

I have two EV chargers on the pavement on my road. Fast chargers are everywhere. Shell are having one fast charger at every petrol station, with a schedule in place to phase out petrol pumps, as EVs take over. One station in London is now to be all EV charging.

I agree, cars are a pain. But! The advances in battery technology will cascade to homes. We will all see the changes if not in EVs, because we may not own one.

 

[davesparks]

I have two EV chargers on the pavement on my road. Fast chargers are everywhere. Shell are having one fast charger at every petrol station, with a schedule in place to phase out petrol pumps, as EVs take over. One station in London is now to be all EV charging.

Everywhere is a bit of an overstatement, there's a handful in a couple of car parks near here, but nowhere near enough to cater for a mass move to EVs and certainly not everywhere!

Petrol pumps won't be phased out for a very long time.

Yes EV chargers are mor prevalent in London, but that is to be expected and can't be taken as representative of the whole country.

 

[John-SJW]

Everywhere is a bit of an overstatement, there's a handful in a couple of car parks near here, but nowhere near enough to cater for a mass move to EVs and certainly not everywhere!

Petrol pumps won't be phased out for a very long time.

Yes EV chargers are mor prevalent in London, but that is to be expected and can't be taken as representative of the whole country.

Wise up. When EVs start to take over the chargers will be everywhere. They will be installed very quickly. Did you look at the Tony Seba video? The mass take up of ICE cars in 10 years? Unless you look at the vid it is best not comment on EVs.

 

[ferg]

Youtube is great source of entertainment but by nature is not the best place to get factual information.

The debate on this thread seems to be coming from two directions.
The current state of EV's and the charging infrastructure with a dose of realism and scepticism of marketing blurb. vs where it is hoped EV's and charging infrastructure will be in the future which is by nature driven by marketing blurb and hype.

I'm not sure anyone disagrees that EV's are a big part of the future but the reality for most of us is that it's a long way away and the current infrastructure is woefully inadequate.

I'd love to have EV's instead of fossil fuel burning vehicles but reality won't let me. I look forward to the day when I do.

There are some very real environmental, social and safety concerns over the mining of the materials required to build EV's which need to be addressed and that will only happen if the people who buy EV's show concern over it, in the same way we are now showing concern over the damage fossil fuels cause.

 

[mattg4321]

Wonder if this Tony Seba can let me know the lottery numbers for next weekend too.

I can’t think of even 1 EV charger in a public place within 5 miles of my house. Probably 100k people live in that area.

 

[John-SJW]

I'm not sure anyone disagrees that EV's are a big part of the future but the reality for most of us is that it's a long way away and the current infrastructure is woefully inadequate.

Based on the take up the ICE car, smart phone, colour TV, etc, EVs will be with us a lot quicker than you think. Tony Seba is not hype, he is highly respected in his field. He actually underestimate the level of EV take up in 2014. At the time they said he was fantasising. He goes by historical data, then projecting to new technology take up. One EV is now in the price range of new ICE cars. Even Dyson and Apple are talking about getting into EVs. The National Grid man I linked to is not hype either.

The only hype is misinformation, and outright lies and propaganda by vested interests in oil and ICE cars. Look at what GM and Firestone did to the trams in LA. They bought the trams up in the 1930s and then scrapped them to sell more cars and tyres. The sensible ICE car manufacturers are turning over to EVs. To maximise profit they have to get into battery manufacture as Daimler Benz, Toyota, etc, are.

For two to three years a friend has owned a Tesla. Brilliant to drive, the best. He has no problem charging it with chargers everywhere. A Smart Phone app will give you the nearest charger. Having a decent charger on the drive does help as it fills the tank when you are in bed, and keeps the running costs super low. He rarely uses garage chargers, as most of the time his batteries are on, or near, full charge. At over 300 miles range he sometime only charges once ever 10 or 14 days. Fast chargers are at every Mway service station.

I read some developers are fitting EV chargers as standard in some new homes. I also read on this forum that some Sparks are fully engaged only fitting these. Big business it seems, which is also an indication of the way the market is going.

Chrystal ball gazing. The country looks to be heading towards phasing out of fossil fuel burning in homes. So, what will that entail looking at battery advances? Will instant electric water heating at say 22kW (like a gas combi) be available from a single phase supply? Using a Powerwall type of battery charged up from the grid, and or solar panels, higher kW appliances than 11.5kW are feasible.
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Wonder if this Tony Seba can let me know the lottery numbers for next weekend too.

I tried. But sadly previous lottery numbers are no indication of future lottery numbers.

I can’t think of even 1 EV charger in a public place within 5 miles of my house. Probably 100k people live in that area.

Try Google. You will be amazed.

 

[mattg4321]

Smart phones and TV’s don’t require any infrastructure to be upgraded.

You seem to have been taken in by only one side of the debate. Are you sure you haven’t sunk your life savings into Tesla or something?

 

[John-SJW]

Smart phones and TV’s don’t require any infrastructure to be upgraded.

You seem to have been taken in by only one side of the debate.

I can say the same about you. I have taken the bother to find out, you appear not to have done.

Are you sure you haven’t sunk your life savings into Tesla or something?

I have an old Toyota.
The infrastructure is here, it is called the grid. Electricity is everywhere, even in the sticks. EV chargers on drives are easily fitted. Fast chargers are easily fitted, as Shell are doing, who are to phase out all petrol stations. No kidding.

The charging infrastructure is being fitted by councils, and mainly private companies, all over the UK.

It took 10 years to move from horses to petrol cars. That is abandoning of the:

• The breeding of the horses;
• Disposing of dead horses;
• The stables;
• The carts;
• The buggies;
• The maintenance of the carts and buggies;
• The fodder;
• The clearing of the tons of horse manure in the streets each day;
  The disposal of the horse manure;
• etc;

Then the adoption of the ICE car, with:

1. The factories set up;
2. The maintenance of the cars with garages;
3. The training of the mechanics;
4. the distribution of petrol - initially petrol was sold in chemists;
5. The construction of the roads;

The introduction of the ICE car produced many huge industries:

• Car manufacture;
• Car maintenance;
• Oil industry;
• Rubber industry;
• Road construction industry.

All in 10 years. We are half way to that point in EVs.

 

[mattg4321]

What upgrades do you expect the local network infrastructure to need? It's not all about power stations. You should also factor in the large take up of electric cooking and heating, ie. air source heat pumps mainly.

You can't seriously expect PV to take up this amount of slack in the UK, where we often don't see direct sunlight for days at a time. Yes it may happen in time, but not in the timeframe you seem to be expecting.

 

[nicebutdim]

No one has disputed that EVs are going to become much more popular.

What is being disputed is the overall costs involved and the ability of the UK's power grid to cope with a steep rise in demand - at least in its current condition.

 

[John-SJW]

What upgrades do you expect the local network infrastructure to need? It's not all about power stations. You should also factor in the large take up of electric cooking and heating, ie. air source heat pumps mainly.

You can't seriously expect PV to take up this amount of slack in the UK, where we often don't see direct sunlight for days at a time. Yes it may happen in time, but not in the timeframe you seem to be expecting.

Look back on the thread you will see a post by me linked to Fully Charged who interview a top man at National Grid. They say they do not need any more power generation to cope with the coming EVs, etc. The secret is storage of electricity, or energy to make it. Look at it, very interesting. Do not reply until you have looked at it.

 

[mattg4321]

Look at my post and you will see I'm not talking about power generation.

The local infrastructure is already creaking and relies heavily on diversity.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Think it was davesparks that brought if up, how do you cope with electric car charging at home if you don't have a car parking space? good thought.

 

[John-SJW]

Highview Power are building a liquid air battery in the UK. The world’s biggest Liquid Air Battery. These are being used for grid storage, to balance the grid and store excess electricity. The battery has these characteristics:

• The size of the battery is 250 MWh.
• It can delivery up to 50 MW of power. which translates to five hours at full power, if the battery is full.
• If it was already working, it would be the ninth biggest battery of all types, except for pumped storage, in the world.
• It will be double the size of the largest chemical battery, which was built by Tesla in South Australia.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-liquid-air-battery-starts-construction-in-uk

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Think it was davesparks that brought if up, how do you cope with electric car charging at home if you don't have a car parking space? good thought.

The same we do now. Go to a charging station. They are everywhere. The south east has more EV charging points that petrol stations.
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Look at my post and you will see I'm not talking about power generation.

The local infrastructure is already creaking and relies heavily on diversity.

National Grid say they can cope. They will not upgrade the distribution network unless it needs it.

 

[davesparks]

National Grid say they can cope. They will not upgrade the distribution network unless it needs it.

That's only one piece of the puzzle, the national grid company are only concerned with the national grid and its capacity, which may well be OK for all these chargers.

What you are ignoring is the DNO networks which are in nowhere near as good a condition.
DNO networks are, in some areas, made up of cables and equipment over 100 years old designed when all you had in a house was a few lights and sockets.
Also the effects of harmonics from the massive increase in electronic loads are causing damage to substation transformers which is only going to get worse if everyone has these car chargers installed.
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The same we do now. Go to a charging station. They are everywhere. The south east has more EV charging points that petrol stations.

Does it? How are you counting these? Can you provide some data and an explanation of how you are defining petrol station and charging point for this?
A lot of motorway services have one petrol station and 20+ charging points so it is very biased to count number of points versus number of stations.

 

[Trufflepig]

I watched this vid on Youtube. Interesting. They have 3 phase supplies. Does anyone know the cost of upgrading from a single to a 3 phase domestic supply?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7wxNtrorQ&lc=UgyPTN2d89tBByfm4Dx4AaABAg.9CrcYe7x50b9CsC6DnPJKw

You would need to talk to your local DNO. it would depend on where the nearest 3 phase was and work involved in getting it to your property.

 

[John-SJW]

This is the introductory paragraph.

Researchers are now simulating how the energy transition can be as successful and cost-effective as possible. As part of the simulation, they are also calculating how much hydrogen will be needed and where it could come from. In Germany, a recent study by Fraunhofer ISE showed that the cost is so low that the nation could gift itself the energy transition as a Christmas present.

The article makes these and many other points:

• Hydrogen is ideal to produce process heat about five hundred degrees centigrade.
• Hydrogen can be used to power some cars, trucks, trains, ships, and aircraft
• In Germany ten million cars could be powered by hydrogen, as opposed to forty million by batteries.
• Consumer choice will play a big part in how much hydrogen is needed.

It is very much a must-read article.

The weekend read: Hydrogen and the energy transition

Researchers are now simulating how the energy transition can be as successful and cost-effective as possible. As part of the simulation, they are also calculating how much hydrogen will be needed and where it could come from. In Germany, a recent study by Fraunhofer ISE showed that the cost is...

www.pv-magazine.com

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Does it? How are you counting these? Can you provide some data and an explanation of how you are defining petrol station and charging point for this?

Do wish some of you read links and at least do a simple Google before typing. 18 months ago EV charging points overtook petrol stations. That is not including home charging:

EV charging sites outnumber petrol stations for first time - Zapmap

New figures from Zapmap reveal the extent of the UK’s electric vehicle revolution, with the number of public charging locations now surpassing petrol stations for the first time.

www.zap-map.com

33634 EV CONNECTORS at 12147 LOCATIONS

EV: Charging

Want to understand a little more about electric car charging? We've created the ultimate guide on everything you need to know about electric car charging points

www.edfenergy.com

​

There are thousands of free electric car charge points in the UK, often located in supermarkets, shopping centres, public car parks, hotels and sometimes service stations.​

​

UK: number of charging locations 2018-2020 | Statista

In the period of consideration, the number of charging locations available for electric vehicles in the United Kingdom steadily increased.

www.statista.com

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An Hitachi battery train. 10-15 mins charge time, or charged when under overhead wires. Can run on overhead wires or battery when there are no wires. Batteries, which are the current types, last 10 years. The batteries will go to grid storage when renewed, with obviously superior new solid state sets.

 

[nicebutdim]

There will need to be hundreds (or even thousands) of times the number of charging points, than the current number of fuel pumps.

Fast charging is relative and doesn't compare to the couple of minutes required to fill a tank with petrol or diesel. While fast charging points are available, they only represent a small percentage of the total number of currently available chargers.

It is beyond doubt that EVs solve some of the problems we're facing, but I simply do not view them as anything more than a stop gap, with hydrogen being a much more viable long term option.

 

[John-SJW]

Hydrogen fuel cells are viewed for large vehicles: ships, trains, trucks and even buses. Batteries for smaller vehicles like cars. Germany already has fare paying hydrogen trains in operation.

Batteries will be used for trains where there is a mixture of electrified and unelectrified track. Merseyrail metro at Liverpool have a new Swiss train fleet which can take batteries and run on 3rd rail or wires. They are to use them to extend the service onto unelectrified track in a number of peripheral locations.

Hydrogen is out as combustible fuels are precluded from the Liverpool & Birkenhead underground sections. There is a plan to extend the metro to Skelmerdale, making it feasible because the cost of electrification is omitted. Then trains can run from the centre of Liverpool's underground section to Skelmersdale. There is also in that area to be a hydrogen trial on the Liverpool to Chester line via Runcorn. Train maker Alstom are on the line, as is a local oil refinery for the hydrogen gas. Covid delayed it.

Batteries be a part of the solution, but EV cars are here to stay. Once the solid state batteries are here they will be firmly fixed. Home chargers and fast chargers everywhere then they are solid in the market.
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It is viewed that we will charge EVs like we charge smart phones, drip charging as we go. Go to the supermarket then plug in for free, getting maybe 10 miles of range. Go home, then plug in. Go to work then plug in, maybe for free getting lots of miles over 9 hours. Fast charging on major roads.

Even if some chargers are not that fast, they will give enough energy in the battery to get you around in normal circumstances.

 

[davesparks]

Hydrogen is a wonderful fuel, its just a shame that the vast majority of our hydrogen supply currently comes from fossil fuels and creates just as much pollution being made as burning the fossil fuels would for energy.
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It is viewed that we will charge EVs like we charge smart phones, drip charging as we go. Go to the supermarket then plug in for free. Go home, then plug in. Go to work then plug in, maybe for free. Fast charging on major roads.

None of this 'plugging in for free' will be free, we will be paying for it one way or another. The cost may be hidden in increases in the price of your shopping at the supermarket, but you will still be paying for it.

For a supermarket car park to be fully equipped with car chargers they will need quite a large electricity supply capacity.
and at busy times it will be quite highly loaded, unless intelligent load control is incorporated in the whole system, but that will then lead to none of the cars getting very much charge whilst they are there.

 

[John-SJW]

Hydrogen is a wonderful fuel, its just a shame that the vast majority of our hydrogen supply currently comes from fossil fuels and creates just as much pollution being made as burning the fossil fuels would for energy.

Read that article about Germany and hydrogen. Very good.

The grid pay companies to use electricity as at times they produce too much. In these circumstances, and overnight, they can produce hydrogen, to sell or use to produce electricity in peak demand. This balances the grid, the holy grail for the grid operators.
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Introduction:

A 20-foot container sized battery that can charge four electric cars simultaneously has been safely delivered to Portsmouth International Port in the UK this week as part of the Port Energy Systems Optimization project.

It looks like another case of battery-to-battery transfer to fast-charge one or more battery-powered vehicles or trains. Charge the container overnight then deliver it to a station for the day. Sounds like an interim solution.

Innovative Battery Delivered to Portsmouth International Port

A 20-foot container sized battery that can charge four electric cars simultaneously has been safely delivered to Portsmouth International Port in the UK this week as part of the Port En...

www.renewableenergymagazine.com

 

[plugsandsparks]

Electric Cars are the work of the devil. They were tolerated when they were used to deliver milk early in the morning but now they pose a serious threat to the world as we know it.
I fear the world where civil unrest breaks out and new neighbour disputes emerge about whose turn it is the charge up the EV. Dark days ahead in more ways than one.

 

[John-SJW]

plugsandsparks, you really should find out before typing.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Sadly, i am at the sharp end on the last few miles of electrical energy distribution, install EV charging points and deal with clients who dare to ask for more KVA from their energy provider. I dont need to read anything, i live it
Oh and i recently quoted for a Super charger.... do YOU know how much these things cost ? and what is involved ? - Its eye watering....
Oh by the way tesla charge 24ppkwh, thats how they are paying for the superchargers.
Stop reading !!, by a Tesla and find out for yourself the reality of your dreams

 

[Midwest]

Well something will have to change with our love affair with fossil fuels, it’s polluting the planet and is running out.

Seems we have approx 50 years left for oil & gas and 150 years left for coal. Perhaps our grandchildren will be driving around in steam engines

Ev cars seem initially very expensive. There’s a couple of ev Jags near me. They start about 70k. Cheapest ev are 30k. I normally buy a newish car every 5 years or so, will my sons be able to afford that.

The prices will have to come down, we’ll have be able to go to an Electrical station, and charge up in a few minutes. As said not everyone has a drive. There’s plans for pavement parking to stop, so lead’s across paths won’t happen.

The combustion engine is nearing its end, not in my lifetime, nor my children, but will happen for my grandchildren.