UK 3 phase domestic supply

[westward10]

How come you find it so difficult to understand something so simple?

I think you need to lose your arrogance and respond to posts in a respectful manner or this thread will be stopped.

 

[UNG]

I tend to have a long wait to get to a pump, then a long wait to pay. I would say half an hour.

Even at the height of the fuel strikes it never took me that long to fill up. This sounds like an over exaggeration in order to try and make a point

Some EVs will soon recharge the lot in 15 mins. But as it will not be fully flat more like 5 to 10 mins. If charged at home, it fills the tank overnight while in bed.

Some EV's will soon recharge in 15 mins would you like to put a number on how many will recharge in 15mins and what infrastructure is needed for this to happen. EV's with larger battery capacities charged at home would need chargers of 7Kw or greater running for 10 hours or more to achieve a full charge overnight the household with 2 or more EV's will really struggle
Most if not all the superfast chargers will only work on vehicles with 900v batteries so the 15 minute charge is not available to all

I have followed the progress of zero emissions cars for many years. I do analysis, being a graduate engineer. That is how we assess matters. I have addressed all points put forward. Most points given are people just no knowing, with others reciting oil company propaganda and myths.

I have followed EV technology since the days of Chloride Silent Power and their sodium sulphur battery and yes I fully understand how the oil companies lobbied the US government to prevent legislation passing that would have favoured EV's that forced the closure of Silent Power by the German parent company and they mothballed the battery technology for future use
There is yet to be a true zero emission vehicle as the manufacture of the vehicle creates emissions that have to be taken into account
With regard to your analysis it's a pity you haven't analysed what you and others have posted and answered the questions asked without resorting to the propaganda videos previously posted
You seem to choose to insult the intelligence, knowledge and research capabilities of the members of this forum just because they don't want to conform to your view and look at the influencer videos that you have been taken in by

Most were answered in the links I gave. The links many never looked at but then typed complete nonsense thinking they knew all the answers. Many asked question which can be answered by a quick Google. Many dismissed the links rejecting the content, unable to accept that what they have been thinking for years is wrong.

You have quoted many pieces from the links you posted with most of what you have posted found to be utter tosh and lacking real world knowledge of the local DNO network and it's limitation

I have no interests in EVs, batteries, etc.

This thread started off regarding supplies, home batteries, etc, I never pushed it over to an EV thread, in fact attempting to get it on track. The battery technology is being pushed by EVs. The more they improve, the better for homes.

HMG is looking at banning the sale of new fossil fuel burning cars in ten years, bringing it forward 5 years. I never made it up, I gave the link.

You have driven this debate from the outset and peppered it with biased links and dubious information
It is not wholly true that battery technology is driven by the EV, PV and wind power and the limitations of excess electricity in the network is pushing the implementation of large scale storage batteries
And you repeat yourself again banning the sale of new fossil fueled vehicles in ten years does not prevent the use of them for the following 15 - 20 years, in case you missed it, it was main stream news a few months ago no link required

ASDA have a lot of chargers. The aim is to have a charger at every parking bay. Shop and get 10 miles free at the same time.

Asda have 432 charging points and 631 stores thats less than one per store yet in your analytical mind it adds up to a lot

There is a solar farm on the English-Welsh border at Deeside. The world's first solar school is just outside Liverpool - 1961. Solar PV panels are dropping in price like stones - see the Seba vid. It will be as cheap to have solar tiles as ordinary tiles. All roofs are solar roofs as the sun shines on them all. The economics clearly stack up looking at all the panels on top of commercial buildings.

Look at the link to the National Grid man. That solves your misgivings.

So the panels are dropping in price they are only a part of an installation what about the inverters, cabling and mounting hardware plus the labour to install it all

The National Grid man is one small part of the electricity distribution network he does not solve any misgivings READ THE PAST POSTS IN THIS THREAD AND ANALYSE WHAT HAS BEEN SAID

zero emission at the point of use is not a red herring at all. It is coming. About three years ago the transport minister abandoned the large scale electrification project, because zero emission battery and hydrogen fuel cell trains can fill the bill

I gave the Tesla one million charges battery to be announced within days.

Zero emissions at point of use is a red herring it uses tyres, windscreen wipers and other consumable items during the course of use, repurposing old EV batteries only delays the batteries ultimate disposal and deflects the associated emissions from the EV it started it's life in

The hydrogen debate isn't as clear cut as it might be with the carbon footprint of large scale hydrogen production possibly being an issue that has to be addressed

I did not labour the point of EVs on this thread.

So if it wasn't you who was it then

Did you do a Google? I gave links to EV chargers outnumbering petrol pumps. That is not counting home charging either, which are being installed every day, with also public chargers being fitted every day.

Earlier in this thread you quoted EV points outnumbering PETROL STATIONS which is a very different statistic to the number of PETROL PUMPS
And we are still waiting for the answer from you and I don't want another google it response so answer the question you must of analysed this information
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How come you find it so difficult to understand something so simple?

It is far from a simple subject in fact it is quite complex once you dig into it and start crunching the numbers
The electricity production alone to drive this revolution will change as the demand profile that has worked for many years changes, overnight off peak electricity will no longer be off peak as everyone plugs in their EV. The resilience of the power stations and grid will tested to it's limits accommodating the peaks and troughs of generation and demand

 

[John-SJW]

I think you need to lose your arrogance and respond to posts in a respectful manner or this thread will be stopped.

I posted the details with links, yet a raft of posts come back asking the same question, as if what I wrote was false, making it up or exaggerating. This was not the fist time I directed people back to the links.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I forgot the caveat (some people are so picky !)... obviously some ICE vehicles can do this already, but they are rare or you have to install them as a non-standard upgrade.

It's an option on all BMW's and included if you have the business option fitted, most 5 series are bought as a company car and have this option fitted, so not rare at all IMO, and hereby lies the problem, all of your post are only your opinion most not backed up with facts, just manufacturers propaganda, this Thread has strayed so far away from it's original intent it is now far too confrontational, time to close it I think.

 

[John-SJW]

Even at the height of the fuel strikes it never took me that long to fill up. This sounds like an over exaggeration in order to try and make a point

The Tesco filling station after I shop.

If you had followed the thread, Some EV's will soon recharge in 15 mins. Look up the new Tesla battery to be announced within days. I gave details. Many posted that such things never existed. They do. The fast chargers will come and come fast keeping pace with technology introduction. I gave the links to prove there are more EV chargers than petrol pumps. Anyone with half a brain can see EVs are coming in, in a big way, with chargers being installed everywhere, even in stores, people's drives, etc. There are four chargers outside my place.

The overall emissions of EVs from manufacture to running is far less than ICE cars. The important aspect is that there is zero emissions in urban areas, as 90% of us live in urban areas, they matter and matter big time. I notice no one picked up on that point. I wonder why.

I have not insulted the the intelligence of the members of this forum, as you are attempting to do towards me. Many need to understate matters and least look at the links before typing. I was obvious that many did not even look at links, but knew all the answers countering the points and links. The links are totally counter to what your mind is tuned to, then you come out with futile fighting with your back to the wall. The sign of failure is your ad hom attacks.

I was going rip you apart, which is very easy to do, but just could not be bothered. You are taken in by Big Oil propaganda. I noticed no one commented, causing selective amnesia, was that HMG may bring the ICE ban forward to ten years from now. I will not see EVs in my lifetime some were saying, only if your 90 that may be the case. Get used it, you will be driving an EV whether you like it or not, as you will not be able to buy petrol.

The whole country, and civilised world, is moving over to zero emissions transportation. The Luddites are like those you said Diesel trains would not replace steam.

This post by you was a clear insult and sneer towards me.
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time to close it I think.

Or maybe it is not going your way, so you want to stop the game and take your ball home.

 

[Zerax]

It's an option on all BMW's and included if you have the business option fitted, most 5 series are bought as a company car and have this option fitted, so not rare at all IMO, and hereby lies the problem, all of your post are only your opinion most not backed up with facts, just manufacturers propaganda

You're right Mike... I completely forgot about the BMW 5 Series (with Business Option)... I should have looked at the facts. I feel such a fool. Last year they sold about 10k of them (out of 2.31 Million, being about 0.4% of all new UK car sales). So as you say, not rare at all.

 

[John-SJW]

You're right Mike... I completely forgot about the BMW 5 Series (with Business Option)... I should have looked at the facts. I feel such a fool. Last year they sold about 10k of them (out of 2.31 Million, being about 0.4% of all new UK car sales). So as you say, not rare at all.

I recall the diesel BMWs (or was it Merc) had a narrowboat central heating boiler fitted as an option in the engine bay that runs on diesel. It preheated the engine and cab of course.

These little boilers were 80% efficient. So it was worth pre-heating the engine at all times, winter and summer for economy. During warm up an engine will be doing single figures in mpg equiv - the engine is 20% efficient anyhow, so down to around 10% on warm up.

 

[nicebutdim]

During warm up an engine will be doing single figures in mpg equiv - the engine is 20% efficient anyhow, so down to around 10% on warm up.

I had always understood that petrol engines were inefficient until warmed up, but that diesel engines returned the same mpg from cold.
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Another point is that petrol engines are anywhere from 20-35% efficient, with diesel engines generally over 40% - some modern diesels are over 50% efficient. The figure of 20% is often bandied about by green lobbyists and is a worst case being presented as "fact" for all cases.

 

[John-SJW]

I read that as the metal of the engine is cold, the combustion is not at its best - the cooling system is still pumping cold water around the engine countering the warm up period - until warm there should be no water circulation ideally - electric water pumps can do this. Hence why older diesel engines blew out black smoke on start up/warm up. The efficiency may be better than petrol in the warm up, but not at its best.

Some newer engines now have the exhaust manifolds inside the cylinder head to give a faster warm up to meet emissions regs on warm up and stop-start engines. They need a slightly bigger radiator that's all.

 

[nicebutdim]

The combustion processes in diesel and petrol engines are entirely different and I would recommend reading from a wider range of sources on this subject.

It would also be worth gaining an understanding of why preheating takes place in diesel engines and the reasons why additional engine heating has traditionally been in very cold climates. It is not for reasons of efficiency.

Here's a very simple, but surprisingly concise, run down of the diesel engine. Learning about different types of combustion engines might help you understand why I'm dismissive of your point.

 

[John-SJW]

Believe me I fully understand how combustion operates in internal combustion engines. Diesel is full air, no throttle (though some rare versions do/did have a throttle), so they do not run at the ideal 14:1 stoichiometric ratio. The rattly noise is that they are too lean (too much air) at low revs/loads. When they are at 70mph on Mways they quieten down as the stoichiometric is neared or met.

When cold, diesel engines can be difficult to start because the cold mass of the metal of the cylinder block and cylinder head absorb the heat of compressed air in the cylinder, preventing ignition. Preheat the engine then this is not a problem as the metal is warm. To overcome this starting problem they use glowplugs to aid in keeping the compressed air hot in the cylinder (not lose its heat to the surrounding cold metal). If the air compressed by the piston is too cold, the fuel sprayed in to the combustion chamber by the injector will not ignite.

This is old hat technology that will be phased out soon enough for electric or hydrogen. Cruise liner operator are looking to hydrogen fuel cells to operate in the sensitive sunshine ports like Venice.
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In Westminster we have over 450 on-street electric vehicle (EV) charge points, ranging from 3kw to 22kw, with more being added to provide greater coverage for the growing number of EV owners in the City.

That is just Westminster alone. You can request to have a charger outside your home.

Electric vehicles

There are many benefits to owning an electric vehicle including free on-street parking in Westminster (when charging) and no congestion charge.

www.westminster.gov.uk

.

 

[westward10]

Electric vehicles predate petrol and diesel therefore EV is also old hat.

 

[John-SJW]

Meanwhile next door in Kensington Chelsea..

There is planned an improvement in the Source London network of on-street charging points to expand from 15 points to over 40 – and half of those new points will offer much faster charging at a rate of 22kWh (compared to the standard 7kWh rate). We think that this will greatly improve our offer to residents and address the specific point raised by Mrs Canard Moreau at the Council meeting.

Additionally, there are around 60 electric vehicle charging sockets in our lamp columns, and we plan to increase this number significantly by this spring. This will greatly increase the density of our electric vehicle charging network, and provide residents with more choice.

Finally, officers are identifying sites that might be suitable for a number of rapid (50kWh) chargers, which allow vehicles to recharge in a short period of time – again offering electric vehicle owners an additional option.

Our aim is to achieve substantial coverage of charging points within 200m across the borough.

 

[nicebutdim]

It is indeed old technology, but has incorporated many advances over the years. The core point is that diesel engine efficiency is generally at least twice that which you have claimed.

I'm not sure why someone who fully understands combustion engines would present such wildly inaccurate information.

 

[John-SJW]

Electric vehicles predate petrol and diesel therefore EV is also old hat.

Good point. But not in the current techno climate. Diesels will be outlawed in urban areas sooner than you think. London has emissions regs. Diesel hybrids were not accepted, petrol hybrids were.

I'm not sure why someone who fully understands combustion engines would present such wildly inaccurate information.

Same here.

I once worked on diesel generators in the Middle East. I got know how they worked.

 

[nicebutdim]

Meanwhile next door in Kensington Chelsea..

There is planned an improvement in the Source London network of on-street charging points to expand from 15 points to over 40 – and half of those new points will offer much faster charging at a rate of 22kWh (compared to the standard 7kWh rate). We think that this will greatly improve our offer to residents and address the specific point raised by Mrs Canard Moreau at the Council meeting.

Additionally, there are around 60 electric vehicle charging sockets in our lamp columns, and we plan to increase this number significantly by this spring. This will greatly increase the density of our electric vehicle charging network, and provide residents with more choice.

Finally, officers are identifying sites that might be suitable for a number of rapid (50kWh) chargers, which allow vehicles to recharge in a short period of time – again offering electric vehicle owners an additional option.

Our aim is to achieve substantial coverage of charging points within 200m across the borough.

People who work in the industry have repeatedly stated that existing infrastructure is insufficient to meet singnificant increases in demand. I'm not sure how copying and pasting the minutes of a London council meeting addresses that.

 

[John-SJW]

diesel engine efficiency is generally at least twice that which you have claimed.

The most they have ever got from diesel engines were in large ship's engines running at constant temperature, speed and load - a mere ~50%. That is half the fuel in the tanks is wasted.

Road vehicles is around 30% at best. Hydrogen fuel cells are running at 60% in trains in Germany right now, with zero emissions.
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People who work in the industry have repeatedly stated that existing infrastructure is insufficient to meet singnificant increases in demand. I'm not sure how copying and pasting the minutes of a London council meeting addresses that.

Name these people.
Once again. Look at the links I gave. Look at the Fully Charged vid with the National Grid man. Listen to what he says. On other vids the top man has said there is no problem in the transition.

You are spouting oil lobby propaganda. The same old stuck record for the past 10 years.

 

[nicebutdim]

The most they have ever got from diesel engines were in large ships's engines running a constant temperature, speed and load - a mere ~50%. That is half the fuel in the tanks is wasted.

Road vehicles is around 30% at best. Hydrogen fuel cells are running at 60% in trains in Germany right now.

While 30% is a significant increase on your previously claimed figure, it is most certainly not the best case for road vehicles. In actual fact, 30% would generally be regarded as the minimum expected from the least efficient diesel engines.

I'm very much in favour of the idea of hydrogen as a fuel source, but it's not yet viable for day to day use.
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Name these people.
Once again. Look at the links I gave. Look at the Fully Charged vid with the National Grid man. Listen to what he says. On other vids the top man has said there is no problem in the transition.

You are spouting oil lobby propaganda. The same old stuck record for the past 10 years.

At this point I'm done. The people I refer are those who have posted in this thread. While I do not currently work in the electrical industry, most of those posting are not only presenting cold hard facts, but cold hard facts based upon many years of experience. Does it surprise you to learn that many of those posting on an electrician's forum might actually have some knowledge of the industry?

What seems to be clear is that you came here to ask a question about an idea you had, then decided to launch into a different subject that you are passionate about. My part in this was asking some questions and countering some information that I knew to be incorrect. I'm happy for you to believe whatever you please and I have no concerns whatsoever about the sort of vehicle I'll be driving 5, 10 or 20 years from now - the only factors that will influence my decision will be those based on simple financial considerations. If an EV makes economic sense then I'll buy one, but I can assure you that my requirements and circumstances in rural Northern Ireland will be very different to those which you experience in London.

Good luck in your future campaigning endeavours.

 

[John-SJW]

Hydrogen is suitable for large transportation: ships, trains, trucks, buses, etc. Once trains take it up, the road vehicles will follow. Hydrogen can be produced by electricity overnight at train depots, so no transportation costs.

The current hybrid trains running on electric wires and diesel off the wires to Devon/Cornwall, from London, are designed to be converted to Hydrogen when the time comes.
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At this point I'm done. The people I refer are those who have posted in this thread. While I do not currently work in the electrical industry, most of those posting are not only presenting cold hard facts, but cold hard facts based upon many years of experience.

So these experts who say the the grid cannot cope are all the Sparks posting here, with nothing backing up what they wrote, while the National Grid expert (I gave the link) says the opposite. Are you serious when you write these sorts of things? LOL Are you having a laugh?

I am not campaigning. I know the technology. I know where it is heading. Again, look at the Tony Seba vid, that will tell you which way we are heading. He does not even cover flat screen TVs and how quick they spread all over the world.

With living amongst the sheep you obviously think it is not a big issue. Like 90% of us, I live in an urban area, and I do not like having vehicles pour out poisons 24/7 amongst us.

Wise up. The Sparks on here are the ultimate authority. LOL, LOL.

 

[DPG]

I still don't understand how the system is going to cope with:
Public EV chargers
Private EV chargers
The switch from gas heating and cooking to electric
The electricity needed for hydrogen production
The electricity needed for an increasing number of electric trains

Maybe the grid can cope with all this, all though I've only seen one man's confirmation that it can. But what about local infrastructure? I keep seeing suggestions of a charging point at every lamp post - do you think the distribution network and the cables can cope with this? The cables feeding lampposts weren't specced with this in mind.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for electric cars (and bikes) and we will get there, but it's important to see both sides, and the issues there may be. I've seen a lot of youtube videos and let's just say many of them skirt around some things.
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Hydrogen is suitable for large transportation: ships, trains, trucks, buses, etc. Once trains take it up, the road vehicles will follow. Hydrogen can be produced by electricity overnight at train depots, so no transportation costs.

The current hybrid trains running on electric wires and diesel off the wires to Devon/Cornwall, from London, are designed to be converted to Hydrogen when the time comes.
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So these experts who say the the grid cannot cope are all the Sparks posting here, while the National Grid expert (I gave the link) says the opposite. Are you serious when you write these sorts of things? LOL Are you having a laugh?

I am not campaigning. I know the technology. I know where it is heading. Again, look at the Tony Seba vid, that will tell you which way we are heading. He does not even cover flat screen TVs and how quick they spread all over the world.

With living amongst the sheep you obviously think it is not a big issue. Like 90% of us, I live in an urban area, and I do not like having vehicles pour out poisons 24/7 amongst us.

Wise up. The Sparks on here are the ultimate authority. LOL, LOL.

Your attitude borders on childish. And nobody had said the grid can't cope, they have said the DNO network may struggle. But you keep ignoring this.