NICEIC Certification Scheme 2391 V NICEIC - Whats the point in 2391??

[Steve Bramah]

Really? Any evidence of this? Or is it well they will try anything to get out getting things done mentality?

Hi, have you ever submitted a certificate to Building control or an Insurance company, under your own name?

 

[Steve Bramah]

Really? Any evidence of this? Or is it well they will try anything to get out getting things done mentality?

Hi, have you ever submitted a certificate to Building control or an Insurance company, under your own name?

 

[westward10]

If you are a "qualifying supervisor" signing off certificates, but you aren't qualified to fill in the certificate, how does that work?

Not qualified. Not sure how to take that

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Hi, have you ever submitted a certificate to Building control or an Insurance company, under your own name?

I have, even when the Insurance Co. requested that the EIC be from an NICEIC registered installer.

 

[Andy78]

Hi Andy, so what you are saying, is that because you are a qualified electrician, you are automatically entitled to fill in a cert to cover the work you have undertaken. Why do you think that BS2391 was introduced? Its a level above 1st and 2nd fix installation. To gain 2391, you need to be able to understand the readings that your test equipment has just given you. You need to be able to correlate the readings, to what might be expected. I'm not trying to decry people from thinking that sparks should be confident in what they have installed, but 2391 gives you lots of mathematical equasions that can qualify your readings. Its not that simple. Thats why 2391 exists!

Um.... all that knowledge comes with standard training, at least it did with mine. Why testing exists, how to test, how to interpret results, all the equations and physics behind testing and results, how to fill in a cert etc.
I'm sorry but your assertion that the 2391 or equivalent quals are required to be able to test and certificate work is nonsense and you won't be able to back that up with anything more than opinion.

 

[Steve Bramah]

The 2391 qualification was introduced (as I have already pointed out) at the behest of the NICEIC as a requirement for the role of QS.
As for signing off their own work.
Any electrician working in accordance with BS7671 (regardless of qualifications), must be able to sign off their work.

Hi, so look at the above posts, to find a guy that is a QS, but doesn't have 2391!

 

[Dillb]

Hi, have you ever submitted a certificate to Building control or an Insurance company, under your own name?

Why would I? It’s a pointless excercise, you actually think they will do anything with it other than lose it?

 

[westward10]

Hi, so look at the above posts, to find a guy that is a QS, but doesn't have 2391!

Do you think I would benefit from having it.

 

[Steve Bramah]

Um.... all that knowledge comes with standard training, at least it did with mine. Why testing exists, how to test, how to interpret results, all the equations and physics behind testing and results, how to fill in a cert etc.
I'm sorry but your assertion that the 2391 or equivalent quals are required to be able to test and certificate work is nonsense and you won't be able to back that up with anything more than opinion.

Fair comment. Try joinin NIC or Elecsa without it.

 

[Ian1981]

My QS at my company also doesn’t hold a qualification in inspection and testing but has held the role of QS for around 15 years and is present annually upon inspection by the Niceic area inspector

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Hi, so look at the above posts, to find a guy that is a QS, but doesn't have 2391!

So read through the previous posts.
You'll also see where I stated the requirement was dropped.

 

[123]

Hi Andy, so what you are saying, is that because you are a qualified electrician, you are automatically entitled to fill in a cert to cover the work you have undertaken. Why do you think that BS2391 was introduced? Its a level above 1st and 2nd fix installation. To gain 2391, you need to be able to understand the readings that your test equipment has just given you. You need to be able to correlate the readings, to what might be expected. I'm not trying to decry people from thinking that sparks should be confident in what they have installed, but 2391 gives you lots of mathematical equasions that can qualify your readings. Its not that simple. Thats why 2391 exists!

It's not a British Standard, it's merely a qualification. Referring to it as BS2391 is incorrect.

 

[Andy78]

Fair comment. Try joinin NIC or Elecsa without it.

For a long time the minimum requirements of NICEIC DI membership was the 2382 regs course, Elecsa were slightly higher. They are now owned by the same group and I don't think either require test and inspection quals to join. Not entirely sure now as I ditched my Elecsa membership a few years ago.

The membership of a scheme has nothing to do with your ability or competence to test and inspect work so not entirely sure what your point is here.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

It's not a British Standard, it's merely a qualification. Referring to it as BS2391 is incorrect.

From what I understand, the invigilators are quite hot on correct terminology in the 2391 exam.

 

[Steve Bramah]

Do you think I would benefit from having it.

If the job that you are in allows you to be a qualifying officer, without holding 2391, then don't rock the boat.

 

[Steve Bramah]

For a long time the minimum requirements of NICEIC DI membership was the 2382 regs course, Elecsa were slightly higher. They are now owned by the same group and I don't think either require test and inspection quals to join. Not entirely sure now as I ditched my Elecsa membership a few years ago.

The membership of a scheme has nothing to do with your ability or competence to test and inspect work so not entirely sure what your point is here.

Hi Andy, NIC, Elecsa and ECA are now owned by Certsure. If you hold 2391, this proves your ability to test and inspect. I don't think having a 17th edition qualification would hack it in court.

 

[westward10]

Holding a 2391 means nowt.

 

[Andy78]

Hi Andy, NIC, Elecsa and ECA are now owned by Certsure. If you hold 2391, this proves your ability to test and inspect. I don't think having a 17th edition qualification would hack it in court.

For a long while the minimum entry requirements of the NICEIC were the 2382, I'm not making that up. I am not aware of any CPS scheme that requires test and inspection quals as competence is proved to their satisfaction on the initial assessment.

Anyway, we are digressing. Schemes, like building control and insurance companies, have no bearing on one's competence to test and issue a certificate to BS7671.

 

[Steve Bramah]

For a long time the minimum requirements of NICEIC DI membership was the 2382 regs course, Elecsa were slightly higher. They are now owned by the same group and I don't think either require test and inspection quals to join. Not entirely sure now as I ditched my Elecsa membership a few years ago.

The membership of a scheme has nothing to do with your ability or competence to test and inspect work so not entirely sure what your point is here.

Holding a 2391 means nowt.

How would you know, if you haven't got it. Try leaving your present employer and telling them you are a qualifying officer, but don't hold 2391. Good luck with that.

 

[123]

What's a qualifying officer? I thought it was Qualified Supervisor

 

[Steve Bramah]

For a long while the minimum entry requirements of the NICEIC were the 2382, I'm not making that up. I am not aware of any CPS scheme that requires test and inspection quals as competence is proved to their satisfaction on the initial assessment.

Anyway, we are digressing. Schemes, like building control and insurance companies, have no bearing on one's competence to test and issue a certificate to BS7671.

Hi Andy, i completely agree with you. I have 2391, but i still had issues with Building control and insurance companies becoming more complient. I eventually joined Elecsa to get them off my back, and by the way, you can't join Elecsa or NIC without 2391

 

[Andy78]

How would you know, if you haven't got it. Try leaving your present employer and telling them you are a qualifying officer, but don't hold 2391. Good luck with that.

With respect Steve you are barking up the wrong tree. I have been a member of this forum for many years and can attest to the fact that Westward does indeed know his stuff.
Any decent employer would look at past experience and positions coupled with recommendations as well as qualifications.
A certificate is not the be all and end all of proof of anything.

 

[123]

The requirements to join as an NICEIC Approved Contractor, from NICEIC Website...I don't even see a mention of 2391?


To apply for the Approved Contractor Scheme, you will need the following:

• Your business to have recently undertaken electrical installation work
• Appoint an appropriate person as a Principal Duty Holder and nominate one or more Qualified Supervisors.
• Have premises and equipment appropriate to the range and scale of electrical work you undertake, including test instruments suitable for carrying out the range of tests required by BS 7671
• Records of the ongoing accuracy and consistency of test equipment used for certification and reporting purposes
• Hold current editions of BS 7671 and other technical reference documents relevant to the range and scale of electrical work you undertake
• Have work available for inspection that represents the electrical work you typically undertake. The work should comply with BS 7671 and relevant codes of practice, and must have been undertaken in the previous 12 months under your business’ current trading title
• Hold at least £2 million Public Liability Insurance
• Maintain a record of any complaints made about the technical standard of electrical work carried out by your business, together with details of the remedial action taken
• Have a written Health and Safety Policy Statement and carry out risk assessments as appropriate

 

[Steve Bramah]

What's a qualifying officer? I thought it was Qualified Supervisor

That depends on how long you have been sat at the computer on a Bank Holiday Monday. Despite the etimology of the sentence, i think we get the jist of the conversation.

 

[Des 56]

I have 2391 but purely for personal satisfaction,I have the years of experience and wanted it coupled with a better than expected understanding of testing which I was undetaking

Normally,any required testing competence should be contained within the syllabus of the apprentices own training scheme

Its only because dilution of the trade has occurred,these specialised quals are brought out by some as some form of superior must have in your locker its a "add on" for a spark it is not a necessary or useful basic electricians training award

On its own it means nothing (as stated earlier)It may help a employer to be swayed into giving someone with the qual preference of one who does not hold it,however, that is mainly employer ignorance,ignorance of what constitutes good electrical training,the 2391 certainly does not constitute good basic training

 

[Steve Bramah]

With respect Steve you are barking up the wrong tree. I have been a member of this forum for many years and can attest to the fact that Westward does indeed know his stuff.
Any decent employer would look at past experience and positions coupled with recommendations as well as qualifications.
A certificate is not the be all and end all of proof of anything.

Please don't get me wrong. I cannot call Westwood for his abilities, and i am quite sure he is competent in what he does. Has this industry gone to pot, where the "competent person" clause now covers everything. Who and what defines competency? It used to be qualifications. Now, it appears to be an ambiguous statement, invented by the government. In a court of law, i would rather have a City & Guilds qualification in the field that i am working on, as opposed to being a "competent person".

 

[westward10]

I believe it is correct that one of the requirements for being a QS with Elesca is the 2391. I am a QS with an Elesca registered company and it has become an annual joke to ask me if I hold it yet.

 

[Andy78]

Please don't get me wrong. I cannot call Westwood for his abilities, and i am quite sure he is competent in what he does. Has this industry gone to pot, where the "competent person" clause now covers everything. Who and what defines competency? It used to be qualifications. Now, it appears to be an ambiguous statement, invented by the government. In a court of law, i would rather have a City & Guilds qualification in the field that i am working on, as opposed to being a "competent person".

Competence in our industry is as it always has been, defined by qualifications, training, and experience, or a combination of some or all of those things.

Look up the definition of Competent in the EAWR and the definition of skilled person (electrically) in BS7671.

 

[Steve Bramah]

The requirements to join as an NICEIC Approved Contractor, from NICEIC Website...I don't even see a mention of 2391?


To apply for the Approved Contractor Scheme, you will need the following:

• Your business to have recently undertaken electrical installation work
• Appoint an appropriate person as a Principal Duty Holder and nominate one or more Qualified Supervisors.
• Have premises and equipment appropriate to the range and scale of electrical work you undertake, including test instruments suitable for carrying out the range of tests required by BS 7671
• Records of the ongoing accuracy and consistency of test equipment used for certification and reporting purposes
• Hold current editions of BS 7671 and other technical reference documents relevant to the range and scale of electrical work you undertake
• Have work available for inspection that represents the electrical work you typically undertake. The work should comply with BS 7671 and relevant codes of practice, and must have been undertaken in the previous 12 months under your business’ current trading title
• Hold at least £2 million Public Liability Insurance
• Maintain a record of any complaints made about the technical standard of electrical work carried out by your business, together with details of the remedial action taken
• Have a written Health and Safety Policy Statement and carry out risk assessments as appropriate

Fair comment. It also doesn't state that you even need to be an electrician. I think that if you applied, things may get a bit more rigorous. I may be wrong, and a painter and decorator who wired his moms extension may be able to join. I hope not!!

 

[Dillb]

Fair comment. It also doesn't state that you even need to be an electrician. I think that if you applied, things may get a bit more rigorous. I may be wrong, and a painter and decorator who wired his moms extension may be able to join. I hope not!!

If those Electrical Trainee course advertise that you can become a “DI” and register with them and you think they will get the 2391 or equivalent on them do they?

 

[Andy78]

Fair comment. It also doesn't state that you even need to be an electrician. I think that if you applied, things may get a bit more rigorous. I may be wrong, and a painter and decorator who wired his moms extension may be able to join. I hope not!!

You are labouring under delusions of an industry that has leading schemes that are out to protect standards over profit.

As soon as part P was brought out opportunities were spotted by the new CPS schemes and training centres to enroll the likes of plumbers and other trades into the schemes.
This evolved into the short course training route which is now actively encouraged and aided by the likes of the NICEIC to churn through applicants in a few weeks to swell the ranks of the schemes in return for membership fees. This was aided by the aforementioned low entry requirements.

 

[Steve Bramah]

Ok, guys, this is my first time on this site, and i have learned that qualifications have been overuled by the "competent persons scheme"
I have been in this industry for 44 years and i am still learning today.
I have virtually every qualification necessary for me to carry out my field of work, plus a couple i don't need, but they are all irrelevant.
I don't feel that my 44 years can give anything to this site, as you all cry "competent person". A short lived relationship, but i won't be back, but thanks to Westwood for backing up my statement about Elecsa requirements.

 

[Andy78]

Ok, guys, this is my first time on this site, and i have learned that qualifications have been overuled by the "competent persons scheme"
I have been in this industry for 44 years and i am still learning today.
I have virtually every qualification necessary for me to carry out my field of work, plus a couple i don't need, but they are all irrelevant.
I don't feel that my 44 years can give anything to this site, as you all cry "competent person". A short lived relationship, but i won't be back, but thanks to Westwood for backing up my statement about Elecsa requirements.

Nobody here has said that. You suggested it once though.

 

[Rpa07]

I’ve been in the garden all day - did I miss anything?

 

[Des 56]

Steve,would you prefer responses that simply agree in all aspects with your views ?

Taking your ball and running because fellow sparks have different attitudes

There may be more cynical opinion of the schemes than what you experience but the well being of our trade is uppermost in all contributors

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Ok, guys, this is my first time on this site, and i have learned that qualifications have been overuled by the "competent persons scheme"
I have been in this industry for 44 years and i am still learning today.
I have virtually every qualification necessary for me to carry out my field of work, plus a couple i don't need, but they are all irrelevant.
I don't feel that my 44 years can give anything to this site, as you all cry "competent person". A short lived relationship, but i won't be back, but thanks to Westwood for backing up my statement about Elecsa requirements.

All you need to do is get your facts straight.
People were Inspecting and Testing installations a long time before the 2391 was a twinkle in someone’s eye.
To suggest that a qualified electrician can’t Inspect and test their own work is a joke.
Failure to do so would be a non-compliance with BS7671.
As for the Competent Person Schemes, Inspection and Testing is not covered by Part P, so there is no requirement for anyone registering with such a scheme to hold the 2391 qualification.

 

[Dillb]

Ok, guys, this is my first time on this site, and i have learned that qualifications have been overuled by the "competent persons scheme"
I have been in this industry for 44 years and i am still learning today.
I have virtually every qualification necessary for me to carry out my field of work, plus a couple i don't need, but they are all irrelevant.
I don't feel that my 44 years can give anything to this site, as you all cry "competent person". A short lived relationship, but i won't be back, but thanks to Westwood for backing up my statement about Elecsa requirements.

Why announce it, why not just leave and never post again? Or you expecting everyone to ask you to stay?

 

[Steve Bramah]

Perhaps I should clarify my opinion of fully qualified? Someone who holds 236-1/2 (yes I’m old enough to date your nan lol) hold the 17th edition update (everyone has this right ?) as well as being time served with enough experience to hold a JIB Approved Electrician card as a minimum.
While those who don’t have the above are likely to get all out of shape (tea/cake stop imminent).
Let me ask you this? If you were paying for an electrician to work on you house wouldn’t you want them to be able to demonstrate their competence to do so with recognised qualifications, competence & experience (they don’t give away JIB Approved Electrician status do they?) together with accountability should anything happen?
I'm glad I'm not the only one on here with 236 parts 1 & 2.
I joined Elecsa, just to get Building control off my back, and that ain't cheap. Been at this for 44 years and never stop learning.

Do I agree with the scams? Absolutely not! At. 54 I don’t profess to know it all... far from it, but as an Approved Electrician with both 236-1/2, 2400, 2391, 2382, 2377.
I fail to see why I’m forced to subscribe to play their game so as to be seen able & above board to trade as an “Approved Comtractor”

Why do I? Because I’m able to charge a premium as well as choosing the jobs I prefer...to a large degree.

As anyone can be a busy fool! So why not make your time as profitable as possible.

 

[ipf]

Steve, just a question. Having been in the trade for 44 years, how long have you been a scam member?

 

[JAWS]

Steve you sound very similar to the poster amptramp who posted yesterday, similarities are very similar.