Alterations on old rewireable consumer unit

[Noob2013]

A friend has asked me to install a couple of extra sockets in there kitchen.

The consumer unit is an old Wylex with rewireable fuses so there is no RCD protection.

Would you carry out the work and recommend a new consumer unit/upfront RCD or would you not do the work unless they agree to have the extra work carried out aswell?

Some people are too tight or unable to afford the extra work so can't make them do it.

Cheers

 

[davesparks]

Ah sorry misread thought you were taking 6mm to the sockets! Though still overkill if its 2.5mm supplying the ring.

Not overkill at all

 

[fall-apart-dave]

A departure from bs7671 is something that doesn't strictly comply but offers at least the same level of safety as compliance. If the socket was installed for a specific piece of equipment then it would have to be labelled as such to omit RCD protection but also the installation method would have an impact on this.. For example T&E burried in a wall at a depth of less than 50mm. Again you could omit RCD protection in an installation other than in a dwelling for the new sockets your installing if you produce a documented risk assessment and couple it with the installation/minor works certificate but you being the designer, inspector and tester would have to have a very good reason for the lack of RCD protection especially if something happened and you found yourself in front of a judge. As above the installation method would also have a bearing on this as other regs have to be considered. Since the introduction of Amendment 3 the old get out of jail free card for the omission of RCD protection if it was under the supervision of a skilled or instructed person is no longer an option as the definition of skilled and instructed was being abused.

Ah, that there is the difference, within a dwelling. That's where I am getting mixed up, we were discussing commercial useage.

 

[fall-apart-dave]

Not overkill at all

How so? 2.5 to ring, why would there be a benefit to an increased csa to the rcd? (Genuine question, not trying to pick a fight).

 

[davesparks]

How so? 2.5 to ring, why would there be a benefit to an increased csa to the rcd? (Genuine question, not trying to pick a fight).

The ring is constructed of 2.5mm conductors having a rough equivalent overall CSA of 5mm, therefore as a rough equivalent the cable required to feed it must be equal to 5mm ( 2x2.5mm ) and the next standard size is 6mm. (I say rough equivalent as that is the dumbed down for idiots version of how a ring works)

Plus the smallest size of tails available (that I have ever used and afaik) is 6mm although that is not very common

 

[fall-apart-dave]

The ring is constructed of 2.5mm conductors having a rough equivalent overall CSA of 5mm, therefore as a rough equivalent the cable required to feed it must be equal to 5mm ( 2x2.5mm ) and the next standard size is 6mm. (I say rough equivalent as that is the dumbed down for idiots version of how a ring works)

Plus the smallest size of tails available (that I have ever used and afaik) is 6mm although that is not very common

Sorry yes my bad, you are right. I'm still thinking about radials with the commercial set up that came up before not a ring final circuit. Parallell thinking, too wrapped up in my own thoughts about what was discussed in the classroom, rather than the ring talked about here. no need to dumb down on my account, but easier to use rough figures to illustrate a point I get that.

 

[davesparks]

Sorry yes my bad, you are right. I'm still thinking about radials with the commercial set up that came up before not a ring final circuit. Parallell thinking, too wrapped up in my own thoughts about what was discussed in the classroom, rather than the ring talked about here. no need to dumb down on my account, but easier to use rough figures to illustrate a point I get that.

Then stop thinking about the last job or making assumptions. If you had made the same mistake in the real world it could have resulted in a fire.

I would be seriously concerned about someone who thinks 2.5 is good for 43.5 amps calling themselves an electrician

 

[hightower]

Davesparks - would that be a lollipop circuit (single leg out to RCD, where it splits to a ring)? I've heard the term bantered about but haven't come across it.

 

[fall-apart-dave]

Then stop thinking about the last job or making assumptions. If you had made the same mistake in the real world it could have resulted in a fire.

I would be seriously concerned about someone who thinks 2.5 is good for 43.5 amps calling themselves an electrician

Yes Dad. Sorry Dad. Won't do it again Dad. As for "real world" it's a far cry from discussing something at daft o'clock when I'm not giving it my full attention now, isn't it..? Annnd I didn't, at any point, say "yeah sure 43.5 amps is fine on 2.5, crack on!", I simply got my wires crossed (wahey! See what I did there..?) and realjsed afterwards and even said sorry (lord knows why!) when you pointed it out. Still, I'm sure the op is finding all this very useful, but lets not stopp to dressing folk down and giving out spankings, that'll make us all look like petty kids in a playground trying to get one up on one another.

 

[GMES]

All this faffing about, just get a new Board put in, by the time you add the labour up and new Garage cu and new tails etc, you've paid for a new Dual Board.
And the ironic thing is usually they need extra sockets to plug their new 1K TV and sound system into but won't shell out to have the job done correctly.

 

[fall-apart-dave]

All this faffing about, just get a new Board put in, by the time you add the labour up and new Garage cu and new tails etc, you've paid for a new Dual Board.
And the ironic thing is usually they need extra sockets to plug their new 1K TV and sound system into but won't shell out to have the job done correctly.

Folk jump at spending cash though, especially when "it was just fine before" and you are "only putting some wires in" - it is funny how people will wince at a small price difference between doing things half arsed and making serious improvements. My next door neighbour is still moaning about a £80 bill for "20 minutes work" when the electrician he used "tried to rip [him] off" when he had the nerve to recommend his lighting be split into two circuits while he was in there (his house has 3 cbs, upstairs sockets, downstairs sockets and all lights).

 

[GMES]

Those are the reasons I don't touch Domestic except for Ind/com Clients. Domestic customers seem to have a very perculiar way of thinking and for me their priorities are always cock eyed.

 

[fall-apart-dave]

Those are the reasons I don't touch Domestic except for Ind/com Clients. Domestic customers seem to have a very perculiar way of thinking and for me their priorities are always cock eyed.

Thats what I will miss about holding a senior position on the ships when managing a mobilisation. Picking up the phone and saying "You want it to do what? Right you need this, this and this, it will take this long, no I can't use whats already there. Okaythanksbai!" and what you say needs done, gets done.

 

[Andy78]

Thats what I will miss about holding a senior position on the ships when managing a mobilisation. Picking up the phone and saying "You want it to do what? Right you need this, this and this, it will take this long, no I can't use whats already there. Okaythanksbai!" and what you say needs done, gets done.

That doesn't need to change with domestic customers. I like to think I'm quite friendly and approachable, but I'm very firm about the way things must be done for me to put my name to them. A firm approach also can help stop the "while you're here" jobs from mounting up.

 

[Octopus]

Davesparks - would that be a lollipop circuit (single leg out to RCD, where it splits to a ring)? I've heard the term bantered about but haven't come across it.

Yes.

Often found in a kitchen where the "old" cooker circuit has been adapted to add sockets..... not in BS7671 or the OSG or the GN's but a perfectly sound way to adapt a circuit if you utilise basic design principles.... How you document it on the forms is up for debate BUT at the very least a comment in the notes ...

 

[sparksburnout]

In my experience, the majority of people will shell out to have it done properly, but I live in quite an affluent area so maybe not representative generally. I guess it also depends on how hard up for work you are, but the best attitude to have really, is if they won't pay out to do it right, walk away. GMES is right, all this faffing around bodging up separate RCD units for just one circuit, just change the sodding board out.

 

[Andy78]

In my experience, the majority of people will shell out to have it done properly, but I live in quite an affluent area so maybe not representative generally. I guess it also depends on how hard up for work you are, but the best attitude to have really, is if they won't pay out to do it right, walk away. GMES is right, all this faffing around bodging up separate RCD units for just one circuit, just change the sodding board out.

I would not say that adding single circuit RCD protection for alterations is "not doing it right." Changing the DB could easily double or treble the cost of a small job.
I always offer a choice mainly to steer myself away from the misleading iteration that the DB needs to be changed to facilitate alterations. I point out the obvious benefits of a DB upgrade but will quite happily carry out work another way if so desired and also consider it "done properly".

 

[davesparks]

Davesparks - would that be a lollipop circuit (single leg out to RCD, where it splits to a ring)? I've heard the term bantered about but haven't come across it.

In my opinion no it wouldn't be a lollipop circuit. I wouldn't consider the few inches of cable between the CU and the enclosure containing the RCD to be a significant part of the circuit (although it should still be tested.

The most common implementation of the lollipop circuit I have come across is in a local college. For most of the classrooms a 32A circuit in 6mm cable runs from the DB to a 45A DP isolator in the classroom then a 2.5mm ring runs from the outgoing side of the isolator to feed all sockets in the room.

 

[sparksburnout]

I would not say that adding single circuit RCD protection for alterations is "not doing it right." Changing the DB could easily double or treble the cost of a small job.
I always offer a choice mainly to steer myself away from the misleading iteration that the DB needs to be changed to facilitate alterations. I point out the obvious benefits of a DB upgrade but will quite happily carry out work another way if so desired and also consider it "done properly".

I agree that there is nothing "wrong" with it. Putting in a separate RCD enclosure just to protect the socket circuit would be fine. In practice though, there will often be limited room and multiple circuits. Sure it would probably double or treble the cost, but as has been said, the client will happily spend 5 or 10 times the cost on a new telly or a personalised number plate for the BM without batting an eyelid, and my approach would always be to go for the global approach as well. How do these same customers deal with a boiler that needs replacing??

 

[Hellmooth]

Yes Dad. Sorry Dad. Won't do it again Dad. As for "real world" it's a far cry from discussing something at daft o'clock when I'm not giving it my full attention now, isn't it..? Annnd I didn't, at any point, say "yeah sure 43.5 amps is fine on 2.5, crack on!", I simply got my wires crossed (wahey! See what I did there..?) and realjsed afterwards and even said sorry (lord knows why!) when you pointed it out. Still, I'm sure the op is finding all this very useful, but lets not stopp to dressing folk down and giving out spankings, that'll make us all look like petty kids in a playground trying to get one up on one another.

Ahhhh so you've met Davesparks............better get used to it lol!

I think you'll do just fine in your chosen career.

 

[davesparks]

Yes Dad. Sorry Dad. Won't do it again Dad. As for "real world" it's a far cry from discussing something at daft o'clock when I'm not giving it my full attention now, isn't it..? Annnd I didn't, at any point, say "yeah sure 43.5 amps is fine on 2.5, crack on!", I simply got my wires crossed (wahey! See what I did there..?) and realjsed afterwards and even said sorry (lord knows why!) when you pointed it out. Still, I'm sure the op is finding all this very useful, but lets not stopp to dressing folk down and giving out spankings, that'll make us all look like petty kids in a playground trying to get one up on one another.

Yes we all make mistakes when posting at daft o'clock, mine was in somehow writing 43.5A when it should have been 41.4A.

 

[fall-apart-dave]

Yes we all make mistakes when posting at daft o'clock, mine was in somehow writing 43.5A when it should have been 41.4A.

I didn't bother checking your figures, I just looked at the point you were making. No hard feelings

 

[DPG]

Yes we all make mistakes when posting at daft o'clock, mine was in somehow writing 43.5A when it should have been 41.4A.

And you would have been the first to start slagging someone off if they had done this very thing. Daz

 

[timo1]

if its just a couple of sockets and rcd spur would comply wouldn't it?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The biggest problem that I see here, is that we don't actually know whether these sockets require RCD protection.
It could be that the sockets are for individual items of equipment?

 

[DPG]

It's a domestic, so they do need RCD protection. Daz

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Has that changed in the 3rd amendment then?
My understanding was that they were not going to change that.

 

[DPG]

Can risk assess them out ('proper' risk assessment) for commercial, not domestic. Daz

 

[telectrix]

Can risk assess them out ('proper' risk assessment) for commercial, not domestic. Daz

that relates to " under the control of a skilled or instructed person". a labelled socket for a specific piece of equipment is a different kettle of smelly fish.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I still haven't got round to purchasing a copy of the BYB, but my understanding is that there was to be no change to the exemption from requiring RCD protection for sockets intended for specific items of equipment.

 

[telectrix]

I still haven't got round to purchasing a copy of the BYB, but my understanding is that there was to be no change to the exemption from requiring RCD protection for sockets intended for specific items of equipment.

my understanding is the same.