Cost of a 4kw solar system

[pwboston]

Im afraid there are people out there doing jobs for <£5k, we recently won an order, using an SMA 3600TL inverter and solarworld panels (good quality kit) and a scaffolding company because it was on a house with obstructions below etc etc, and 2 days into the customer saying yes, the customer rings up and cancels because someone is doing the whole job, all in for £5k. (Not SMA or solarworld though).

So in answering your question (and our customers) can we do good quality work for <5 grand, the answer is no, so we said you go to the other chap and get it done. We cannot move on our price.

 

[puddy]

I never pay up front. Most installers have 30 day credit accounts with their suppliers. If you're being asked to pay upfront it may show a company in trouble.

I have just brought brand new audi Q3 4x4 the dealer asked for a deposit in may and I refused, but I have pride in myself and always pay my bills on time when the work been done. The dealer got paid on the 1 Sept




And always pay by credit card

 

[Gavin A]

I never pay up front. Most installers have 30 day credit accounts with their suppliers. If you're being asked to pay upfront it may show a company in trouble.

I have just brought brand new audi Q3 4x4 the dealer asked for a deposit in may and I refused, but I have pride in myself and always pay my bills on time when the work been done. The dealer got paid on the 1 Sept




And always pay by credit card

we'd not work for you then.

yes we have credit terms, no we don't have big enough credit terms to manage 10 installations at a time.

credit card means an extra 1.5% in costs to the supplier, and you want to pay by credit card after you've already had the installation carried out.... bit of a **** take tbh.

 

[puddy]

I would always check payment terms before work started. It works both ways if I paid you up front how do I know if that's the last time I would see you again

 

[SRE]

As Gavin says 30 day credit accounts don't go anywhere near covering the credit needed for multiple installations in a month. Indeed if an installer only uses their 30 day credit facility they are more likely to go under because at the prices we're getting screwed down to at the moment you wouldn't be able to make a minimum wage.

To put the boot on the other foot - how do we as an installer know that you have a good credit history and pay your bills on time and how do we know that even if you do have that you'll pay us on time? I have sweated for 10 days over the odd customer here or there who were realy nice people but had no urgency to make payment for the work they had had done.

I'd also suggest that an Audi dealer has a much healthier cash flow than most pv installers and also extended credit from Audi themselves. Personally I'd never take the risk of ordering bespoke equipment for a customer who wouldn't commit to a deposit. Your deposit is lodged in a client account completely separate to the main business account and protected in case the business goes bust. There's no risk to the customer but potentially a large risk to the installer.

If you decide not to pay for your Audi you're not given the keys, if we've installed panels in your roof how do you suggest we remove them if you haven't paid for them and how would we retrieve the labour costs for a job that isn't paid for?

Personally, I prefer working with business people every time. They are usually prepared to pay the right rate for a quality installation and completely understand the normal T&C's of a pv installer.

 

[jason121]

I thought the deposits were locked into a third party account until customer gives permission to release money ?????

 

[jerriais]

I would always check payment terms before work started. It works both ways if I paid you up front how do I know if that's the last time I would see you again

All the deposits paid by our customers are protected by deposit insurance so the money would be refunded even if we ceased trading. I agree with Gavin, the installer takes a greater risk than the customer.

 

[whinmoor]

All the deposits paid by our customers are protected by deposit insurance so the money would be refunded even if we ceased trading. I agree with Gavin, the installer takes a greater risk than the customer.

Ditto here.

 

[puddy]

I have never heard of deposit insurance. Some of you say you'd would rather work with businesses' are these the one who change from 30 day to 60 to 90 day payment terms after you done the work?

 

[jerriais]

I have never heard of deposit insurance. Some of you say you'd would rather work with businesses' are these the one who change from 30 day to 60 to 90 day payment terms after you done the work?

We are with QA National Warranties. They insure our deposit and also our 10 year workmanship warranty.

Solar panel installers are quite lucky in that to claim Feed In Tariffs a customer needs to have proof that they have paid in full for the PV system so they're usually very keen to pay asap.

 

[Worcester]

Solar panel installers are quite lucky in that to claim Feed In Tariffs a customer needs to have proof that they have paid in full for the PV system so they're usually very keen to pay asap.

Not quite the case, the person applying for the FiT has to show 'proof of ownership' - the original purchase contract is actually sufficient for that, whether they've paid in full for it or not.

@puddy - To be MCS certified and to deal with consumers, you have to be a member or RECC (nee REAL), one of the RECC conditions of membership is that you MUST issue deposit and workmanship insurance (this only came into force approx April 2012 before that it wasn't compulsory)

Their are lots of deposit and workmanship insurance (DAWI) schemes available for installers, - we use EcoSure after researching about half a dozen, we found that it fitted our and our clients needs best.

I thought the deposits were locked into a third party account until customer gives permission to release money ?????

They should be and most of the contracts I have seen do as well, they have a clause that specifically includes that permission (after the 7 day [working NOT calendar] cooling off period has elapsed.

 

[SolarCity]

Not quite the case, the person applying for the FiT has to show 'proof of ownership' - the original purchase contract is actually sufficient for that, whether they've paid in full for it or not.

That's not the experience we have had. Most FITs providers have asked us for a PAID IN FULL invoice to be issued.

And British Gas have just moved the goal posts again. They truly are an absolutely shocking outfit.

 

[Worcester]

Ownership checks
4.11. FIT Licensees are also responsible for establishing that a FIT applicant is the owner of the Eligible Installation. FIT Licensees are required to obtain documented evidence that shows the relationship between the owner and the Eligible Installation such as:

• a receipt or other documentation stating ownership, or the transfer of ownership from the previously stated owner (invoices may be accepted if the values are redacted to protect commercial interest)
• a copy of the sale and purchase agreement transferring ownership from one party to another as part of a property sale, or equivalent documentation.

As such we've also had customers use the "Contractors Signed commissioning Certificate", and this also has been accepted as proof of ownership

 

[The Solar King]

This thread just goes to show the value of this forum. Off to change our T&Cs in the morning.

Thanks to all the businesses who have contributed to this. Most of it should have been in the Sun Lounge.

 

[SRE]

No, small businesses like ourselves who understand the value of good workmanship and the importance of cashflow. I don't deal with anyone who does 30 day payment terms, I suppose I'm lucky that I have the choice

 

[Gavin A]

That's not the experience we have had. Most FITs providers have asked us for a PAID IN FULL invoice to be issued.

And British Gas have just moved the goal posts again. They truly are an absolutely shocking outfit.

that's our experience as well, and I'm entirely happy with that process, so I'm not sure why Worcester would want to challenge it.

As far as I'm concerned, the customer in no way owns the system until they've paid for it, a contract merely indicates that they've signed an agreement that would give them ownership of the system upon receipt of full payment, it is not / should not be an acceptable form of proof of ownership in itself.

 

[bugsyuk]

That has been my experience as well, all energy companies want to see a paid in full invoice. We offer to register the fee in tariff for our customers, as the forms can be an absolute minefield for some people. British Gas are quite picky as well, some of them that I have spoke to there want to see a paid in full company stamp on the invoice. The trouble is you can show or tell these energy companies the terms and conditions that they set out but they never abide by them.

 

[Worcester]

@GavinA, I'll take the discussion to the Sun Lounge as there are a number of implications....

 

[shanky887614]

Surely you could add to your terms and conditions that you own the panels till they are paid in full. To add fuel to the fire you could claim the generated rate if they don't pay in full as you havent signed over the install

 

[jason121]

I have always assumed that if customer was refusing to pay and I was in the right, that RECC or MCS would step in and refuse to pay the FITS until dispute was over.