Gate automation training for electricians

[linkcaresteve]

Hi,
New guy here. I'm not directly involved in electrical work myself but a friend of mine raised an important question for me recently.
He left The National Grid to start his own landscaping and outdoor electrics company and is interested in adding gate automation to his portfolio. We talked over a few beers and his biggest concern was the safety side of adding automation to gates.
I work for a wholesaler of gate automation equipment and we used to supply training for newcomers to the industry. My mate was very interested when I mentioned this.
Are there other electricians in and around London (we're based in Uxbridge and are developing a new site with working automatic gates in Chobham) who would be interested in this sort of thing? Safety is a big deal for us and I want us to pass our expertise around to help electricians who are interested in this as an additional service.
Are there resources we could add to our website that would help, such as on-line training or safety legislation information? What does everyone think?
Thanks.

 

[grantr37]

so you want us to help you to set up your own business?

 

[linkcaresteve]

so you want us to help you to set up your own business?

Linkcare has been around since 1992. We want to help anyone who wants to add gate automation to their offering, the safety advice and training that is vital to have before you start creating new pieces of machinery (as far as the machinery directive is concerned) that have the power to kill people if not planned and set up properly. I was hoping, by asking the question directly, electricians would tell me how they might want or need this information presented.

 

[chilliwilly]

To be honest as an electrician/electromechanical engineer, I've never struggled with anything that has an electromechanical nature. If I have any doubt I just look in the instructions, as the manufacturer has to supply them by law regarding safety matters. I used to use CAME in the past, and much to my dissaproval they only supplied one set of photo cells and they recommended they be fit on the outside of the property to stop them closing onto a vehicle waiting for right of way to pull out of their drives. But where the gates can crush a person stood in the wrong place when their opening or closing, or where the entrance to the gates form the street is only short causing further problems, they tell you to purchase more photocells or an induction loop?

A bit like buying a car with a hand brake as standard, and then finding that you need front brakes to be able to actually stop when your driving, which are charged as an extra.

Do yours or any other gates come with an adjustable torque setting to reduce the risk of crushing or damage to vehicles? And do they have an automatic lock when they are closed, or do they rely on the gear box and clutch to prevent them from being opened?

 

[Engineer54]

To be honest as an electrician/electromechanical engineer, I've never struggled with anything that has an electromechanical nature. If I have any doubt I just look in the instructions, as the manufacturer has to supply them by law regarding safety matters. I used to use CAME in the past, and much to my dissaproval they only supplied one set of photo cells and they recommended they be fit on the outside of the property to stop them closing onto a vehicle waiting for right of way to pull out of their drives. But where the gates can crush a person stood in the wrong place when their opening or closing, or where the entrance to the gates form the street is only short causing further problems, they tell you to purchase more photocells or an induction loop?

A bit like buying a car with a hand brake as standard, and then finding that you need front brakes to be able to actually stop when your driving, which are charged as an extra.

Do yours or any other gates come with an adjustable torque setting to reduce the risk of crushing or damage to vehicles? And do they have an automatic lock when they are closed, or do they rely on the gear box and clutch to prevent them from being opened?

Then along comes the try anything once DI!! lol!!

Personally i think automated gates are more trouble than they are worth. I've never come across a reliable system yet. I know of gated private housing compounds (in Cyprus) that pay a fortune each year maintaining and repairing the bloody things!!

 

[chilliwilly]

As with any automation, but if a customer asks for it, you quote and do it for them. Be stupid not to!

 

[linkcaresteve]

To be honest as an electrician/electromechanical engineer, I've never struggled with anything that has an electromechanical nature. If I have any doubt I just look in the instructions, as the manufacturer has to supply them by law regarding safety matters. I used to use CAME in the past, and much to my dissaproval they only supplied one set of photo cells and they recommended they be fit on the outside of the property to stop them closing onto a vehicle waiting for right of way to pull out of their drives. But where the gates can crush a person stood in the wrong place when their opening or closing, or where the entrance to the gates form the street is only short causing further problems, they tell you to purchase more photocells or an induction loop?

A bit like buying a car with a hand brake as standard, and then finding that you need front brakes to be able to actually stop when your driving, which are charged as an extra.

Do yours or any other gates come with an adjustable torque setting to reduce the risk of crushing or damage to vehicles? And do they have an automatic lock when they are closed, or do they rely on the gear box and clutch to prevent them from being opened?

Historically, the minimum number of safety devices required by the machinery directive was a single set when the gate is used in semi automatic mode, i.e. the user needs to press a button for the gate to open then press again for it to close.
In that case it is the role of the user to make sure it is safe for the gate to operate and this is why manufacturers' gate automation kits only contain one set of photocells.
On fully automatic systems, 2 sets of safety devices are required to make sure nothing can be in the arc of the gate when it opens or closes.
When talking about personnel safety (people being caught by automatic gates rather than vehicles), there are basically two types of safety mechanism used for motors; torque limitation and obstacle detection (and a combination of both).
Torque limitation means the motor provides a limited amount of power to operate the gate. It's similar to the anti skid system fitted to car, where the “brain” of the car limits the power to the driven wheels when they lose traction to stop them skidding.
Obstacle detection is more involved as the gate automation control panel needs to detect the motor output shaft has stopped turning and then react accordingly (usually stop the gate and reverse).
There are now mains and 24Vdc systems which have the more involved obstacle detection system.
Gate systems have adjustable torque settings and the consideration should be for the safety of people NOT dents to vehicles as badly installed gates can kill. It is highly recommended that all automatic gates have a centre close stop and gates over 2.5m have to have a centre locking device (such as electric locks).

 

[Engineer54]

As with any automation, but if a customer asks for it, you quote and do it for them. Be stupid not to!

It's not the actual installation that's a problem, it's the constant call outs (under warranty if you installed the system) to come and fix the dammed things, that's the real killer!! lol!!

 

[chilliwilly]

That's one of the reasons you should offer a 4 year maintenance contract offering the option of labour and parts, or labour only and parts as extra. Any system that proves itself unreliable doesn't get used ever again, I would only offer a system that's proven to be reliable during and after warranty period. In fact I know its absolutely crap or never heard of it, I would be reluctant to go out to it.

Any thing new on the market that doesn't have a good pedigree, doesn't get used by me until its been around for a couple of years. And I don't just mean electric gates. Hence most of my quotes can come with a premium, but as I mainly have an exclusive customer base, its not always a problem.

But yes call outs during in warranty can be a pain, this can be a problem with something such as nuisance trips from an RCD, to a new or modified control panel for plant machinery, despite using GEC, Mits, Omron, Crabtree, and the like. Eventually it will fail for some reason, but more so in the case of mickey mouse gear.

 

[Engineer54]

As i said, i've never come across a reliable automated gate system yet, be they well known makes or not!! Any call outs under the first years warranty is at your cost, including any running around obtaining replacement parts from the manufacturer. Maintenance contracts with customers can also bite you hard too, especially if you have a lot of other profitable work on, they always want you to sort it all out there and then!! lol!!

If i was a self employed journeyman electrician, i'd avoid automated gates like the plague!! lol!!

 

[linkcaresteve]

A professional installation should start with a thorough survey and risk assessment in order to establish the correct equipment to install, both to satisfy the needs of the customer, keep all users of the system safe and withstand the environmental impacts of the particular site.

As a supplier of many years we find very little equipment that fails under guarantee, be it one year as it used to be, or up to three or four years as it is now on the better brands. Obviously selection of equipment should avoid some of the cheaper brands, most of which are sourced from the far east (whatever name they may have on them) where quality standards for this type of equipment have yet, in general, to achieve the same levels as the experienced European brands.

Given a proper survey and correct selection of equipment, the most important element every time is a good installation, with full consideration given to the fact this equipment is all being fitted outside where the biggest strain will come from the environment - water, wind and heat.

By far the greatest threat to this type of installation is from water, which will destroy underground motors if good drainage is not provided, and wipe out electronics if given half a chance. Experience avoids a lot a problems but there is no doubt that training is important.

So yes – gate automation is definitely not for anyone who wants to work without a solid understanding how things should be done, (particularly relating to safety), and we are always happy to see less of the type of work that can give any industry a bad name.

For any good electrician who relishes a new challenge and is prepared to take it seriously, gate automation can add an extremely profitable area of business.

 

[drew35]

Gate automation is easy!

And if in doubt read the manual, or contact the manufacturer! Don't pay a third party for training which has no accreditation????????????????

Times must be hard if that's your best money making scheme!

 

[linkcaresteve]

Gate automation is easy!

And if in doubt read the manual, or contact the manufacturer! Don't pay a third party for training which has no accreditation????????????????

Times must be hard if that's your best money making scheme!

We’re not really pushing training to electricians. We’re a wholesaler to the gate automation installation industry and there are huge issues with this industry as far as safety goes. There is currently a prosecution taking place of the owner of a company that installed gates that killed a little girl.

We’re trying to make sure that anyone who does get involved understands the safety issues. When I spoke to my friend (mentioned in my first post) he had come from an environment full of safety procedures and practices and wanted to know all about this aspect of gate automation.

I realised that there was a large group of people who could be putting in gate automation with full professional understanding of the electrical side but not of the safety side (outside of electrical safety).

I’m not really trying to get people to come on our courses (we’re moving our training site anyway so can’t really host anything) but I’m trying to understand the level of knowledge and how best to present any required safety information so we can incorporate it into our website.

The problem is that there is a huge amount of legislation that tells you what you have to avoid but not much real world guidance that tells you what specifically needs to be done in the multitude of possible variants that come up.

If we can help people come into this industry and install safe gates, we could help save lives.