Have i done the right thing?

[Rockingit]

Hi Chaps, I posted a thread a couple of weeks ago about a scrap I was having with a builder, well today it's taken an even more interesting turn and I'm starting to doubt myself, which is never a good look.

Basically: the build is a mess, unhappy client, builder with very dubious financial history. Client is going to throw the builders off site next week (plus I go away to the States on hoilday) so it's all hands to the pumps to get the thing finished. I've got a couple of days worth of final snagging and odds and sods then I'm good to sign off so far, then return to do even more after Easter.

Original job was won on tender (£11.5k+vat) and with extra's it's now running to about £18K +vat. So far I have only managed to collect £8k INC, so I'm getting very twitchy (especially as this morning it was discovered that the builders plumber has made a cock-up of biblical proportions which will probably result in them getting fired even earlier) . Further work after Easter will see it running at nearly £25k so it's turned into a nice bit of work, thank you. Now, the client and I are on the same side, and both of us are equally fed up with the builder and having lots of discussion behind the scenes. Builder claims to have no knowledge of my balance invoice for £8k due midday today (allowing for a fair retention, I'm very good like that) despite having acknowledged receipt of the email it was sent on two weeks ago.

So I've thrown my toys out of the pram and am taking the 'goods are mine until payment' approach, so this afternoon (after the builder wouldn't return my calls) I started to remove my goods.......or to be more precise I left site having taken the primary bus bar out and placed it on the passenger seat on the van. Oddly enough, half an hour later as it dawned on all the chippies that the site was dead, I started to get some calls back.

From that point on it gets ugly, but I'm standing my ground. Am I right?

 

[imago]

Yes, absolutely IMHO.

If you don't take a hard stance now you'll have no chance later. It's not a nice position to be in, and any decent person would feel for the customer, as you obviously do. Unfortunately you can't buy groceries with good intentions.

 

[cbw]

I would have done the same,

however it wont take a great deal to put a new busbar in and you have upset the applecart!

Not sure if it was the right thing to do......

Will be interesred in the outcome?

 

[Richard Burns]

Ahh... yes you have done the right thing (oh should I say that!).
So long as you have kept calm at all times even if presenting a toys out of pram approach then you are right to stand your ground.
Difficult to know the legal position but you do need to get paid and there is no doubt about that at all.

Though it maybe difficult, be prepared to negotiate to a small extent at a later date.
Make the point, get somewhere (get some money), then ease off a little to see how things go, but not too much.

Best of luck and hope it all goes well, or at least as well as it can.

 

[Rockingit]

I would have done the same,

however it wont take a great deal to put a new busbar in and you have upset the applecart!

They think I've stolen the DNO fuse (obviously not) so it would take another sparks to figure it all out, and it's quite a complex setup (5 DB's) so probably not immediately obvious. But I'm not going to let on, clearly, especially as it's occured to me that there's a spare bus bar left on site if any of them use their eyes to find it!

The bottom line is that I'm just looking out for my own - the £8k that I've collected so far only JUST covers the wholesalers bills on this, and then I'm looking for at least another £2k to account for my subbies, so at the moment on paper I'm £2k down on the job before I've even contemplated a margin for me. The client has very galantly said that they will guarantee the builders debt and take it out of their retainer if it comes to it, but I'd rather not have to call them up on it for obvious reasons.

 

[Rockingit]

Just had an email letter from the Builders solicitors trying to call my bluff over breach of contract. How we laughed. Sort of.

 

[Spudnik]

Do you have a contract, and if so, does it state roughly "the goods belong to you until paid for"?

 

[Rockingit]

The contract is in the form of a tender, states that: 'Payment shall be by instalment invoices as supplies are made and phased work is complete.'

Doesn't specifically spell it out about title of goods, but I *think* it's considered de-facto in most forms of contracts law. Otherwise, we'd all be able to walk out of Tesco's without paying first.

 

[electromonkey]

Sounds to me like you need to call a site meeting between you, the main contractor and the client ASAP with all cards on the table and get some dialogue going.

You're client may be initially understanding of your removal of the power supply to the site but ultimately someone will have to pick up the cost of the time wasted as a result and the obvious added delay to the completion of the job as a whole.

I think you've made a good statement with your actions i.e. you're not going to be dicked about. Hopefully it will have served it's purpose and get you on to a better footing in attempting to resolve your situation.

Good luck mate. It sounds like you need it too!

 

[Rockingit]

Yes, I have a meeting with the builder in the morning to 'encourage things along'. If that doesn't work then I'll discuss with the client what they want to happen, probably suggest that they come with me to a next meeting as that way the builder has no where to run. They have been trying to charge the client stupid sums for extras that I haven't even been charging them for, which the client knows about, so there's little love lost there.

If they don't cough up over the next 24hrs then I'll be asking the client to stand the debt instead. The irony of all this is that I want to get back on site to finish the job and move on!

 

[Darkwood]

Kinda of a s**t or bust situe as you are alienating everyone on site as your stopping them from working and any pay issues regarding main contractor to them will be now laid at your feet... well in a verbal context, you need to make sure all contractors are aware of situe and not just get the main contractor and client at the table but all the other contractors too so they see whats been going on. You need to clear your name of blame as well as get dialogue going and hopefully resolve the situe, when solicitors letters have already been sent its could be beyond a agreement. A customer in this sense although on your side is usually a one off but the main contractor and all his subbies can do alot of damage to future business, so you need to play a good hand.

 

[Rockingit]

It's been a looong day today:

Client contacted the architects who are loosely project managing and told them that they are 100% understanding and behind my stance, and that they are personally guaranteeing payments if it couldn't get resolved. They also instructed the builder that they were to have a meeting with me, with the architect, to resolve.

Bottom line is that the architect is now holding a cheque for me in escrow, pending sign off on Monday. Not for the full amount, and I've had to make some concessions at this time (the big scrap about the final adjustments will be in a short while...). The builder tried to stipulate that I'm not to be allowed back on site unsupervised and the clients response was to hand me the keys!

I'm mentally and physically exhausted, just got in, food and alcohol beckon. Your words of wisdom have been greatly appreciated, thank you all.

 

[Darkwood]

cheers for the update .... now go get Pi...........:dizzy2:

 

[baldelectrician]

Keep calm- and professional

May I suggest you get the client to pay you direct and you invoice him direct, with the architect keeping an eye on things so everyone's happy (except the builder)

That way you get paid on time and the client doesn't get ripped off

 

[Richard Burns]

Thanks for the update, Well done though it may not seem like it at the moment this is good progress.
Hope the rest goes well.

 

[Rockingit]

Keep calm- and professional

May I suggest you get the client to pay you direct and you invoice him direct, with the architect keeping an eye on things so everyone's happy (except the builder)

That way you get paid on time and the client doesn't get ripped off

Both the client and I would be delighted to do that, but unfortunately the job is now 6 months in and almost finished but with the builder 'hanging in by the skin of his teeth' to not get fired, and the contractual/political lines are very delicate. Everyone is effectively stuck where we are.

 

[Rockingit]

Quick update..... got roughly 50% of balance remaining last night via the architect at the clients insistence, handed over an undated EIC for the file as some minor snags to attend to.....after I return from a well earned 2 week break in Mickey Mouse land which takes off in about an hours time.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Quick update..... got roughly 50% of balance remaining last night via the architect at the clients insistence, handed over an undated EIC for the file as some minor snags to attend to.....after I return from a well earned 2 week break in Mickey Mouse land which takes off in about an hours time.

Glad to see you have moved this on ..................after 2 weeks with Micky you'll need that balance paid .pronto.

Have a great time old mate with the family .................

 

[Rockingit]

I kid you not, in Orlando the power company has shaped an HV pylon into a mimic of Mickey Mouse. I couldn't get a photo sadly due to it being adjacent to the Interstate and only seeing it when driving by in a stream of traffic. I can't see that happening over here!

Sadly what I CAN see happening is me having to find out what's gone on in my abscence with this project...but it'll wait till tomorrow.

 

[Knobhead]

Best of luck to you. It sounds like you stand a good chance of an outcome due to the stance of the main contractor.

To be honest, it's the client I feel sorry for. He's handed the pack of cards to a dodgy dealer. Hindsight is wonderfull, but.....