Kitchen electrical work

[AL3XREID]

I am looking for pro advice on kitchen electrical installation.

Currently in the process of old kitchen being replaced, cancelled registered electrician that I had initially booked up after joiner handling the the job said he could get an electrician in sooner and get it signed off. Which I initially thought was perfect

but now having second thoughts, from what I have been told from other fully trained electricians with regards to work being carried out, regulations etc.

The job at hand was to fit as follows -



Fit small 2 way fuse box for kitchen sockets and cooker. ( Decided to go with this to keep costs down, as main consumer unit would need to replaced due to age.)
Alter cooker point so that it is sunk in wall and there is a connection point for the double oven.
Add sparker socket for hob Add tumble dryer switched fused spur and socket.
Add dishwasher fused spur and socket Testing and Certification.

I have added a picture of current work

 

[richy3333]

Not really sure what you’re asking. Are you saying the joiner is doing the wiring or someone he has gotten in?

You may need a building warrant for the work, depending on the type of property and where stuff is going. If you do you’ll need someone registered with NICEIC or Select.

Under counter appliances require above counter isolation in Scotland. You’ll need a heat alarm and possibly a CO detector in the kitchen.

 

[AL3XREID]

The joiner has brought in an electrician to do the work. Also know the chap has to be fully qualified and registered to do the work, which I have been assured by joiner is the case.I wont take the risk of when it comes to electrical work.

The work is been carried out in my own personal home.


This is work he is due to carry out -

Small 2 way fuse box for kitchen sockets, which has to be fitted for kitchen, as main consumer board is older and not up to todays standards for the work I need done.

Alter cooker point so that it is sunk in wall and there is a connection point for the double oven.

Sparker socket for hob.

Tumble dryer switched fused spur and socket.

Dishwasher fused spur and socket Testing and Certification.

Which are to be isolated above counters as I am in Scotland.

Also will this work have to be signed off under Part P due to 2 way fuse box being installed or just signed off as minor electrical work.

Thanks

 

[Dustydazzler]

All I can see is 2 boxes chopped in and a bit of 2.5 in kopex ...Which is pretty normal at first fix stage

hard to judge the installation on such a small amount of work

 

[AL3XREID]

All I can see is 2 boxes chopped in and a bit of 2.5 in kopex ...Which is pretty normal at first fix stage

hard to judge the installation on such a small amount of work

Thats as much has been done up up to this point of install, so far so good then..

The job sheet for the work i listed, would that have to be Part P signed off or would it be signed off as Minor electrical work?

Thanks

 

[Dustydazzler]

If you are in England only new circ require part p notifiable

howfver you should get a certificate for all the work once it’s complete

 

[AL3XREID]

I'm in Scotland so will have to check legislation up here. Can't see it being much different.

Also from what you are saying, the two way fusebox thats due to be fitted for the electrics in the kitchen, that would also come under small electrical work?

Thanks

 

[richy3333]

Part P doesn't exist in Scotland. We have our own standards and I tried to assist with that in my earlier post re a building warrant.

You'll need a full EIC. If you know the name of the electrical company you can check they are registered by searching SELECT or NICEIC website

 

[AL3XREID]

I won't need a building warrant as I am not making alterations to the building which is what is stated from my local council. But will need an EIC, but reading between the lines from the conversation I had with my my joiner, the electrician is doing the work basicly as a "homer". Which has got me concerned, as how can he legally sign off the work?

Cheers

 

[telectrix]

I'm in Scotland so will have to check legislation up here. Can't see it being much different.

Also from what you are saying, the two way fusebox thats due to be fitted for the electrics in the kitchen, that would also come under small electrical work?

Thanks

NO. it's a new distribution circuit and final circuits. not Minor Works.

 

[AL3XREID]

NO. it's a new distribution circuit and final circuits. not Minor Works.

Will need an EIC as I am in Scotland. Cheers

 

[stevethesparks]

I don't know if its the angle of the photo, but those two newly installed boxes look on the wonk?

 

[DPG]

I don't know if its the angle of the photo, but those two newly installed boxes look on the wonk?

Probably enough movement in the lugs to compensate.

 

[telectrix]

I don't know if its the angle of the photo, but those two newly installed boxes look on the wonk?

in that situation i always use a 2+1 back box.

 

[nicebutdim]

in that situation i always use a 2+1 back box.

Potential issue with decorative accessories?

Between our kitchen and utility room there are three instances where a switched fcu sits beside a double socket. Only one uses a 2+1 box and those other two are spaced differently, but thankfully are on different walls. I'm inclined to agree that dual boxes or individual boxes fixed with a bush would be preferable and also easier to level.

 

[telectrix]

Potential issue with decorative accessories?

could be. then out comes the angle grinder.

 

[nicebutdim]

could be. then out comes the angle grinder.

I'd updated that post with an option that doesn't require the use of a grinder

 

[AL3XREID]

I don't know if its the angle of the photo, but those two newly installed boxes look on the wonk?

Update on works ongoing. Supposedly no need to fit two way fusebox, kitchen electrical appliances were safe enough to run off existing consumer board.

Not really happy with loose switch and socket that was left behind tumble as per picture. Also unsure about socket which has been attached to flooring under the new double oven.

Looking for advice please.

 

[DPG]

That loose socket on the corner is atrocious. Should be fixed to wall and the cable clipped to support it.

 

[AL3XREID]

That loose socket on the corner is atrocious. Should be fixed to wall and the cable clipped to support it.

I genuinely didn't know it was like that until I pulled out the tumble dryer. I have been in touch with the joiner who was dealing with the electrician who done the work, as I'm extremely annoyed about this.

Is the socket that has been attached to the floor ok, or should I be concerned about this also?

Thanks

 

[Red Tony]

When you say attached do you mean they've fixed them to the floor??
You also say this is work thus far, so could this be a temporary setup before sparky comes back to finish and make good?

If that is his idea of a complete installation then that's not acceptable at all. The back boxes should have been sat into the wall fixed and having them on the floor is dangerous if there were ever a water leak nearby and cables and enclosures will be succeptable to damage if left like this.

 

[Dartlec]

I genuinely didn't know it was like that until I pulled out the tumble dryer. I have been in touch with the joiner who was dealing with the electrician who done the work, as I'm extremely annoyed about this.

Is the socket that has been attached to the floor ok, or should I be concerned about this also?

Thanks

It's commonly seen with kitchen fitters, unfortunately - most built in appliances don't have room behind them for a plug these days, so they either end up in an adjoining cupboard, or underneath. The cable and back box should both be suitably fixed though.

The socket on the floor is not a huge problem imo if they are fixed - unless there is a likelihood of a flood - though the cables should be clipped so that the cables can't work loose or pull out. Those back boxes don't usually have cable clamps in them so rely on the cables being fixed to them as well as the box being mounted.

Do have to wonder why the decorative fronts were used where the socket will never be seen though - seems like a waste of money.

 

[AL3XREID]

When you say attached do you mean they've fixed them to the floor??
You also say this is work thus far, so could this be a temporary setup before sparky comes back to finish and make good?

If that is his idea of a complete installation then that's not acceptable at all. The back boxes should have been sat into the wall fixed and having them on the floor is dangerous if there were ever a water leak nearby and cables and enclosures will be succeptable to damage if left like this.

The reply i got back from the joiner that brought in the electrician, was that 'the sparky had fitted it right on the floor, due to issues with space for plug on the wall'?

I'm just glad I double checked everything over and have since been back in touch with the joiner who is dealing with the electrician, there both due back out tomorrow to hopefully fix everything how it should be.

Dartlec can I just confirm that the cable mount and socket is fine on floor if its mounted?.. Which it is.

Red Tony is this something you wouldn't do or something that definitely shouldn't be done?.. I understand what you are saying about flooding and it would be safer wall mounted, suppose i have to take everything into consideration.

Thanks all for your help, its a bit of an eye opener..

 

[James]

dogs dinner,
the socket with the conduit poking out of the side.
no gland on the conduit, looks like it is just shoved in the hole?
no clips to secure conduit to wall.
I would not be happy with that.

if it were me, the sockets would be in adjacent cupboards so you can access them
screwed to floor is not a great idea, gives the best chance of getting wet when the washing m/c goes wrong.

they all go wrong in the end and end up soaking the floor below them, its just how many years they last before doing so.

 

[AL3XREID]

dogs dinner,
the socket with the conduit poking out of the side.
no gland on the conduit, looks like it is just shoved in the hole?
no clips to secure conduit to wall.
I would not be happy with that.

if it were me, the sockets would be in adjacent cupboards so you can access them
screwed to floor is not a great idea, gives the best chance of getting wet when the washing m/c goes wrong.

they all go wrong in the end and end up soaking the floor below them, its just how many years they last before doing so.

dogs dinner,
the socket with the conduit poking out of the side.
no gland on the conduit, looks like it is just shoved in the hole?
no clips to secure conduit to wall.
I would not be happy with that.

if it were me, the sockets would be in adjacent cupboards so you can access them
screwed to floor is not a great idea, gives the best chance of getting wet when the washing m/c goes wrong.

they all go wrong in the end and end up soaking the floor below them, its just how many years they last before doing so.

 

[Dartlec]

The reply i got back from the joiner that brought in the electrician, was that 'the sparky had fitted it right on the floor, due to issues with space for plug on the wall'?

I'm just glad I double checked everything over and have since been back in touch with the joiner who is dealing with the electrician, there both due back out tomorrow to hopefully fix everything how it should be.

Dartlec can I just confirm that the cable mount and socket is fine on floor if its mounted?.. Which it is.

Red Tony is this something you wouldn't do or something that definitely shouldn't be done?.. I understand what you are saying about flooding and it would be safer wall mounted, suppose i have to take everything into consideration.

Thanks all for your help, its a bit of an eye opener..

As far as I know it's not a problem in terms of being compliant with the Wiring Regulations specifically, though there is an argument that it's not suitable for the location as regards the potential for leaks, etc.

I prefer to put the socket in an adjoining cupboard. With most appliances these days there is rarely space behind them for a socket/plug.

If I was doing it from scratch, I'd have a Fused Connection unit above the worktop on the wall, with a cable outlet below in the wall for the appliance. But then you sometimes run into manufacturers who get funny if you cut the plug off their shiny new appliance.

At the very least, if the sockets were going on the floor, putting them directly under a 'wet' appliance is maybe not the best idea....

My point was generally that wherever the socket goes, it should be mounted properly as should the cable to it.

 

[jakew009]

The whole job looks like a complete disaster, if this is what’s visible I dread to think about what’s hidden and you can’t see.

I’d get your original electrician in to redo the lot and knock his bill off the joiners bill.

 

[AL3XREID]

So the conduit should be attached to a gland for sealant. The thing is this is right behind my washing machine.

I'm beginning to wish I had got another electrician in myself now, as I'm guessing this is all bog standard stuff he should know and be doing for safety.

 

[AL3XREID]

Stupidly enough the joiner has already been paid, for all work. I payed him in installments with completion of each part (as far as I knew!)...He sorted out the electrician out of his own pocket which was then added into overall cost, no doubt a little extra for him.

He has kept to his word up to this point and has kept me in the loop, as far as I know. Any issues I have been able to contact him straight away.

Regardless I do still wished I got an electrician in myself to save this hassle.

 

[Dartlec]

So the conduit should be attached to a gland for sealant. The thing is this is right behind my washing machine.

I'm beginning to wish I had got another electrician in myself now, as I'm guessing this is all bog standard stuff he should know and be doing for safety.

It's hard to tell from the picture whether the flexible conduit is glanded correctly to the back box or not. If the flexible conduit was fixed to the wall properly then it might well be suitable - though indicative of a "kitchen fitter" job rather than a well planned electrical installation.

Electrical installation often gets overlooked in kitchen installs unfortunately, and once units are in then the options for running cabling are limited. I've seen some very expensive kitchens with much worse electrical installation where it isn't immediately visible.

The main thing will be to ensure you get a certificate for the work (Probably a Minor Works Certificate), as that will at least show that the work was tested as safe.

 

[James]

although other types of conduit gland are available, i have never seen one that is not visible from the outside of the enclosure.

 

[AL3XREID]

It's hard to tell from the picture whether the flexible conduit is glanded correctly to the back box or not. If the flexible conduit was fixed to the wall properly then it might well be suitable - though indicative of a "kitchen fitter" job rather than a well planned electrical installation.

Electrical installation often gets overlooked in kitchen installs unfortunately, and once units are in then the options for running cabling are limited. I've seen some very expensive kitchens with much worse electrical installation where it isn't immediately visible.

The main thing will be to ensure you get a certificate for the work (Probably a Minor Works Certificate), as that will at least show that the work was tested as safe.

It's hard to tell from the picture whether the flexible conduit is glanded correctly to the back box or not. If the flexible conduit was fixed to the wall properly then it might well be suitable - though indicative of a "kitchen fitter" job rather than a well planned electrical installation.

Electrical installation often gets overlooked in kitchen installs unfortunately, and once units are in then the options for running cabling are limited. I've seen some very expensive kitchens with much worse electrical installation where it isn't immediately visible.

The main thing will be to ensure you get a certificate for the work (Probably a Minor Works Certificate), as that will at least show that the work was tested as safe.

I was informed by the electrician he couldn't certificate the work, due to the consumer unit not inline with 18th edition standards, which would be a fail.

Couple of the other quotes from other electricians said the exact same thing if they were to do the work. Only way around it to certificate it would be install a new consumer unit, which wasn't in my budget.

 

[James]

oh, scary stuff.

if you cant write a certificate in good faith, you cant do the work.

his installation should meet current standards.
if it doesn't, then it should be agreed with the customer and marked on the cert as a deviation.

would you have a gas boiler installed if the gas fitter said, ok i will do it but i cant write a safety cert for the install because there is something wrong that i can't be arsed to fix?

 

[Dartlec]

I was informed by the electrician he couldn't certificate the work, due to the consumer unit not inline with 18th edition standards, which would be a fail.

Couple of the other quotes from other electricians said the exact same thing if they were to the work.

Interesting - I was going to comment that Part P makes doing unsuitable work illegal, even if it's not notifiable, but then realised you are in Scotland so things are rather different (though not laxer to my understanding)

Out of interest, what was the part that didn't comply? RCD protection?

There are usually ways to ensure that the bit they have done is compliant, and issue a certificate for their bit with a suitable description of the work and any exclusions.

 

[jakew009]

Interesting - I was going to comment that Part P makes doing unsuitable work illegal, even if it's not notifiable, but then realised you are in Scotland so things are rather different (though not laxer to my understanding)

Out of interest, what was the part that didn't comply? RCD protection?

There are usually ways to ensure that the bit they have done is compliant, and issue a certificate for their bit with a suitable description of the work and any exclusions.

I think the original plan by the electrician was to put in an additional 2 way CU for the kitchen presumably for the reasons you allude to, but kitchen cowboy declared this unnecessary (and probably spurred it all off the lighting circuit for good measure.)

 

[AL3XREID]

oh, scary stuff.

if you cant write a certificate in good faith, you cant do the work.

his installation should meet current standards.
if it doesn't, then it should be agreed with the customer and marked on the cert as a deviation.

would you have a gas boiler installed if the gas fitter said, ok i will do it but i cant write a safety cert for the install because there is something wrong that i can't be arsed to fix?

 

[AL3XREID]

I do agree about the certificate, i thought it was a bit strange, regardless of the type of consumer unit i have.

The couple other quotes I had done prior to install by this guy, said the exact same thing if there were to go ahead with the job. So are they all on fiddle locally ??

The consumer unit i have, does need replaced as it isn't up to todays standards, that I do know. The electrician that done the job did say to me there was enough leeway in the system to fit what I needed done rather than fitting two way. But how would I know any different as I ain't the electrician.

I appreciate all your feedback, I have clearly made the wrong decision agreeing to have this guy do the work.

 

[Dartlec]

I do agree about the certificate, i thought it was a bit strange, regardless of the type of consumer unit i have.

The couple other quotes I had done prior to install by this guy, said the exact same thing if there were to go ahead with the job. So are they all on fiddle locally ??

The consumer unit i have, does need replaced as it isn't up to todays standards, that I do know. The electrician that done the job did say to me there was enough leeway in the system to fit what I needed done rather than fitting two way. But how would I know any different as I ain't the electrician.

I appreciate all your feedback, I have clearly made the wrong decision agreeing to have this guy do the work.

Probably doesn't help, but I've seen worse on kitchen fitting jobs even in England since Part P came in...

The point of the certificate is more to show that the new wiring was actually tested to ensure that it wasn't damaged during installation, earth loop impendances are suitably low, etc to ensure that whatever protection you do have will trip in the case of a fault. The fact that things work is no guarantee of that. (Leaving aside the issue that new work *should* be installed to the current regulations)

It is possible to have a "safe" installation that doesn't meet current regulations in every particular, but if no testing was done then there is no way for you to know if that is the case.

Looking forward, one option may be to get the original electrician you had planned to get in to do an EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report) on the existing installation so at least you know the state of things - That would also allow him to give an accurate quote on a new consumer unit as much of the testing work is replicated.

 

[AL3XREID]

Thanks again. Just don't understand why he wouldn't want to certificate the work he done and do a proper job, regardless of the issue with the consumer unit. Its not like it was a pittance i paid for the work.The best of it is, hes back out tomorrow to sort out the issues i have flagged up. What hope do i have on it being rectified!!!...

I'm clearly going to have to do something eventually, but sadly for now I have maxed out finances and then some on this kitchen install and appliances, so have no extra to get someone else out just now.

Just can't believe this, what a bloody disaster!

 

[Red Tony]

If it were me doing it I'd have wall mounted everything and instead of sockets I'd have put fcu's in and put fuses from plugs in to suit and labelled them up in case were ever disconnected in future.
If a jobs worth doing its worth doing right.

 

[Dartlec]

Thanks again. Just don't understand why he wouldn't want to certificate the work he done and do a proper job, regardless of the issue with the consumer unit. Its not like it was a pittance i paid for the work.The best of it is, hes back out tomorrow to sort out the issues i have flagged up. What hope do i have on it being rectified!!!...

I'm clearly going to have to do something eventually, but sadly for now I have maxed out finances and then some on this kitchen install and appliances, so have no extra to get someone else out just now.

Just can't believe this, what a bloody disaster!

Unfortunately I don't know the Scottish system well enough to say whether there is any comeback or route you can follow on the certificate side when you have had work done. It may be worth finding out if he is registered with any of the national bodies.

In England, installing a new domestic socket without RCD protection would likely not meet Part P of the Building Regulations, which is a statutory requirement, unlike the wiring regulations (confusingly) and policed by the Local Building Control or HSE. Unfortunately it is policed poorly and prosecutions for breaches are rare and usually only in extreme circumstances.

Sockets without RCD protection that are existing do not *have* to be brought up to standard (they can and should be when possible), which is where the wriggle room often occurs for kitchen fitters or people looking to do as little work as possible.

For now it is probably best to ensure when he is back on site that he sorts the issues you've flagged - and proves to your satisfaction that he has tested it so that it is 'safe'. He may be reasonable if approached in the right manner with your concerns - which would be calm but firm on what you consider good workmanship. If the threat of witholding money is no longer available to you then this may be a better option than angry confrontation.

If he isn't prepared to complete a certificate for just the work he has done then ask why - and perhaps try asking for a 'schedule of test results' for the circuits that have been affected at least. That would mean plugging in a proper tester and testing things like:

Earth Fault Loop Impedance Zs
Ring Continuity (if applicable) - This is an important one that can easily be messed up by any work on the circuit.
Insulation Resistance
RCD testing (I suspect this is the sticking point for not wanting to issue a certificate)

If he is unable to carry out those tests, then I'm afraid he is not an electrician of any type, but a handyman who should not have been doing the work, whatever he charged.

It might be useful to see a picture of your consumer unit. There is a wide range between 'safe' but non compliant work and dangerous bodges and it's not immediately possible to tell which your situation is.

I'd say that nothing in the photos you've shown strays past poor workmanship into definitely dangerous, though obviously it is hard to be definitive in such a situation

 

[AL3XREID]

I have added a photo of my existing consumer unit.