LABC don't think I'm qualified to wire my house

[David Prosser]

Hi any idea what would consist of demonstrating you are suitable qualified to BS 7678 17th Edition.

As I have approach my LABC to notify them of my intention to rewire my house including a new extension. I have sent them copies of my: C&G 2360 Lv1&2, C&G 2382(BS7671) Lv3, and C&G 2391 Lv3. I have a number of other qualifications but they are little to do with domestic installing.

This is the reply I have received.

Good afternoon


I can confirm from the information you have provided it does not demonstrate that you are qualified to BS7671iet wiring regulations 17th Edition.


In this instance the fee will be £348.00 (inc.vat)

If you think this is reasonable then can you point me in the right direction of getting the necessary qualifications.

I have asked for an explanation from LABC only to be told "the surveyor look at your qualifications and said you are not trained to 17th edition"

Thanks

 

[Toneyz]

Just to add to the above David is right in his post I had a good coversation with the head of LABC at Northampton B.C a few years ago they do the same the fee is less if you can prove that you are qualified as they do not inspect at every stage this is ok if a one off for example when our local NICEIC inspector rewired his own house however if you are doing any more for the cost go through Stroma etc.The head of LABC also told me the information does on the deeds for the house.When I did a house for a mate under Market Harborough LABC they only sent out a general building inspector for it, this is why the part P got changed to allow 3rd party.

 

[Diddy]

Sorry mate you are talking out of your proverbial. The rules are very clear, you have two choices. 1. You put in a building control application, do the work (to BS7671), then get it tested and passed by the councils appointed employee or contractor, or 2. You get a person who is part of a CPS to do it and notify via their scheme. Someone with "zero experience" or with qualifications acquired in "two months" would NOT be allowed in a scheme. And BTW it is "bored", not "board" electrician, unless you are talking about one working for a "board", on the side.

Nice way to put it lol. Ok I live and do most of my work in Scotland.....I do "some" contracting when I am living in kent...I lead a double life lol..well it feels like it.
So If I may try to address your points
1. I was under the impression that with the correct qualifications you could do the notifying by yourself and pay the LABC a reduced fee (as you have effectively done the sign off yourself)...this seems to be borne out at the end of this thread (as of 11pm)...I can also say from reading this very forum that some councils will not budge on the need for a scheme member to do the notifying so always charge the full fee....But some do use some common sense.
2. Someone with zero experience CAN and do register for these schemes each and every day - Here you go fill your boots Bronze: Domestic Installer Course - https://www.tradeskills4u.co.uk/courses/domestic-installer-course

For example they could call it part P of the building regulations and enact it in legislation!

And how many part P prosecutions have there been so far ? How many people fail their assessment or reassessment ? How many contractors have been kicked off any of the CPC's for poor standards or otherwise ?
This stuff has been discussed in parliament - the system is not fit for purpose. Compare it to a system such as Gas safe and then you have something worth having.

Im surprised at the reaction of some on here. Times have certainly changed lol. Go back a couple of years on here and most were in complete agreement that the schemes were/are just a man in the middle money grabbing leech....but some would have them seen as the guardians of the trade now...pretty laughable in my humble opinion.

 

[Toneyz]

I have said all the way along it should have gone like gas safe you generally don't get people messing with gas fires etc like you do with electrics

 

[sparksburnout]

I am not saying I agree with the situation, but that is how it is. People DO get refused admission, there was a guy on here just the other day. I believe you need at least a level 3 qual now, not some 3 week bronze rubbish as suggested to become a scheme member. Personally, I don't see how a complete novice could do a short course and get past any assessment I have ever had from any of my former schemes. You might be right about some areas, but as far as I am aware, from general information and from chatting to my local BCO, they adopt the simple rules I outlined.

 

[David Prosser]

You might be right about some areas, but as far as I am aware, from general information and from chatting to my local BCO, they adopt the simple rules I outlined.

Ok then so back to my original post (and with the "FACT CAPS KEY" now in bed for the night). I was just after what the opinion was on qualified to BS 7671 17th edition. I believe I meet those requirements so should have a decent chance of getting the fee reduced with my LABC.

I was not after a general discussion over part P and it's constituents. I may start a new thread over the "Part P v Gas Safe" as I have feet in both camps in my day to day work.

 

[rolyberkin]

About time we had a decent thread on here for a good old discussion, anyway as you were, a friend of mine is going to put an electric supply in his shed..................................................!

 

[David Prosser]

About time we had a decent thread on here for a good old discussion, anyway as you were, a friend of mine is going to put an electric supply in his shed..................................................!

Do you think he will exporting PME or now Brexit has come along he won't be able to afford the license.

 

[Taylortwocities]

I was just after what the opinion was on qualified to BS 7671 17th edition

If by that you mean the C&G 2382-xx exam then this is by no means a qualification as an electrician.
All it means is that you can find your way round the regs book.

All that you have to do to pass the exam is:

• turn up for the exam on the right day
• spell your name correctly
• be able to read the questions and look for the answer in the book

its a multiple guess exam, if you just pressed answer (a) for every question you would still score 33%

that does not make you, or anybody an electrician.

 

[David Prosser]

If by that you mean the C&G 2382-xx exam then this is by no means a qualification as an electrician.
All it means is that you can find your way round the regs book.

All that you have to do to pass the exam is:

• turn up for the exam on the right day
• spell your name correctly
• be able to read the questions and look for the answer in the book

its a multiple guess exam, if you just pressed answer (a) for every question you would still score 33%

that does not make you, or anybody an electrician.

well thanks for that, however I believe it was over a varying number of choices in each question not just 3 options a go (may even be negative marking don't know 100% is 100%), that though is irrelevant as to the validity of the qualification. However you should try to read the posts in there entirety not just come out with glib assumptions as to peoples qualifications, abilities or experience.

 

[davesparks]

I was under the impression that if the work is part of building works which are subject to planning permission and normal building regs inspections by labc then they are not legally allowed to charge any more than the standard building regs inspection for any part of the building regs (part P is just one of many parts of the building regs)

This came from my father when he was still working as a building inspector for our labc.

 

[Pete999]

I have no idea what you mean. Maybe you could elaborate on what you think could be a problem.
I have asked what other people think I may be missing so if you can shed some light on this it could really help.
I have copied and pasted their reply so you can read into it what you like, that's all the information I have, no smoking guns, no dodgy rewires or house fires just what I have put in the original post.
As for all the building work the builder has notified LABC and been inspected over the last couple of check points with no problems, which is no great surprise as he is a top notch builder who started of the job with " I don't **** about with electrics, that **** can kill you". So he had my vote strait away !

Can't see the document you say you have pasted.

 

[7029 dave]

If there is no appeal then this is one of them cases where I wish some board millionaire electrician takes their council to court. This insistence that you can only notify your work if you are registered in a scheme is just full of holes and begging to be tested in a court under lets say "restricting trade" or some other legal avenue. It is one thing having a proper scheme recognized through industry as the "standard" such as gas safe, which links your qualifications with practical exams ect ect...but this is just a mish mash misunderstood waste of time.
Ironic that the above qualifications in all likelyhood took several years to achieve but you could get someone with zero experience that "could" in theory be more "qualified" to do this work within the space of 2 months in one of these intensive courses.....the world has gone mad.....MAD I Tell YA !!!

MAD, ITS ONE BIG CON.

 

[David Prosser]

Can't see the document you say you have pasted.

It's the bit in itallics on original post. Start "this is there reply".

 

[Taylortwocities]

However you should try to read the posts in there entirety not just come out with glib assumptions as to peoples qualifications, abilities or experience.

Yes, but I was responding specifically to your question as to "what the opinion was on qualified to BS 7671 17th edition". It was not a general comment on anybody's particular qualifications or lack of them.

I do have sympathy with your predicament, but please undersatnd that there most of us (me included) spend an inordinate amount of money every year to be a member of a Competent Person Scheme together with all of the things that it entails. With time for assessments, fees, manadtory insurance and everything included I estimate is costs me a grand a year.
There are so many people who come on to electricians forums and try and find a wangle, or a back door, to try and get around the notification process.

I absolutley agree with the principles of Part P, and for the reasons that it needed to be introduced. In my opinion the notification process has been watered down so much since it was originally introduced as to be near on pointless now. As noted above above it should have been imposed properly much as CORGI/GasSafe has been.

 

[Taylortwocities]

I was under the impression that if the work is part of building works which are subject to planning permission and normal building regs inspections by labc then they are not legally allowed to charge any more than the standard building regs inspection for any part of the building regs (part P is just one of many parts of the building regs)

I agree, but maybe the OP can elaborate. My guess is that one application was made for the building of the extension and associated works and a separate one was made for the rewire. In that case its two cases = two fees.

If the original application was for a whole house refurbishment to include new CU, rewire and the building of the extension then it should only have bene one building notice.

 

[David Prosser]

I agree, but maybe the OP can elaborate. My guess is that one application was made for the building of the extension and associated works and a separate one was made for the rewire. In that case its two cases = two fees.

If the original application was for a whole house refurbishment to include new CU, rewire and the building of the extension then it should only have bene one building notice.

If you look at the reply I recieved the LABC have told me it is not included. This is as you concluded the result of two lots of aplications due to poor advice from LABC in the first place.

 

[David Prosser]

Yes, but I was responding specifically to your question as to "what the opinion was on qualified to BS 7671 17th edition". It was not a general comment on anybody's particular qualifications or lack of them.



I do have sympathy with your predicament, but please undersatnd that there most of us (me included) spend an inordinate amount of money every year to be a member of a Competent Person Scheme together with all of the things that it entails. With time for assessments, fees, manadtory insurance and everything included I estimate is costs me a grand a year.
There are so many people who come on to electricians forums and try and find a wangle, or a back door, to try and get around the notification process.

I absolutley agree with the principles of Part P, and for the reasons that it needed to be introduced. In my opinion the notification process has been watered down so much since it was originally introduced as to be near on pointless now. As noted above above it should have been imposed properly much as CORGI/GasSafe has been.

I'm pretty sure I'm not trying to wangle my way around the notification process, rather more trying to go fully through the process.

BS7671 covers more than just domestic installations so someone is not a member of a scheme has very little to do with "qualified to BS7671 17th edition".

 

[sparksburnout]

I still don't get how different councils can adopt different procedures. Surely, if they don't use their own employee or contractor to inspect the work, then if anyone else does this for them (other than someone registered on a CPS doing it from scratch), we are talking 3rd party certification? In which case, the work has to be inspected at prescribed stages. I don't see how this can be partly met by them using someone to "assist" the process, based on their degree of qualification, as the council interpret it?

 

[Pete999]

Hi any idea what would consist of demonstrating you are suitable qualified to BS 7678 17th Edition.

As I have approach my LABC to notify them of my intention to rewire my house including a new extension. I have sent them copies of my: C&G 2360 Lv1&2, C&G 2382(BS7671) Lv3, and C&G 2391 Lv3. I have a number of other qualifications but they are little to do with domestic installing.

This is the reply I have received.

Good afternoon


I can confirm from the information you have provided it does not demonstrate that you are qualified to BS7671iet wiring regulations 17th Edition.


In this instance the fee will be £348.00 (inc.vat)

If you think this is reasonable then can you point me in the right direction of getting the necessary qualifications.

I have asked for an explanation from LABC only to be told "the surveyor look at your qualifications and said you are not trained to 17th edition"

Thanks

As I understand it C&G 2360 is no longer a recognised qualification, 2391 has been superseded by more updated qualifications, so it looks to me (I could be wrong) that the only up to date qual you have is BS7671 17th edition update, which as it has been sai before does not qualify you as a fully trained Electrician. I'm sure there are other people who can agree or disagree, may be that is the reason they have said what they did. When I was working my company sent everybody and their Dog on the 17th, most passed, those that did then considered themselves as Electricians, which, of course as we all know is total carp, sorry to be so blunt, but that's how it is.

 

[Jay Sparks]

I think the general consensus is that you need to have an NVQ to be "qualified", however, I am sure there are loads of electricians that don't have the NVQ but have been in the trade for many years and would also class themselves as qualified. I'm not to interested in what the scams say, so for me, the closest thing to an authority would be JIB.

Cheer

Jay

 

[sparksburnout]

W

As I understand it C&G 2360 is no longer a recognised qualification, 2391 has been superseded by more updated qualifications, so it looks to me (I could be wrong) that the only up to date qual you have is BS7671 17th edition update, which as it has been sai before does not qualify you as a fully trained Electrician. I'm sure there are other people who can agree or disagree, may be that is the reason they have said what they did. When I was working my company sent everybody and their Dog on the 17th, most passed, those that did then considered themselves as Electricians, which, of course as we all know is total carp, sorry to be so blunt, but that's how it is.

When I did my 17th edition (because I had to for the scam' like everyone else) there was a bloke there that worked in a library. He had been sent by his employed to "broaden his knowledge"! He had NO electrical knowledge whatsoever. Anyone like to guess if he passed or not? I reckon my missus could pass it, but I wouldn't use anything she subsequently wired up.......

 

[David Prosser]

Yes the JIB recognise 2391 as well 2360 which was the first step into training as an electrician back when I started.

I'm unaware of 2391 not being recognised any more.

Thanks for the input. Could you shed some light as to what you concider to be a qualified electrician then?

 

[Midwest]

I don't think a qualification C&G 2360 can deemed to be no longer recognised, the course has just been superseded by another C&G course (however was there a level 3 the OP does not appear to have?).

This goes back to one of my previous posts, that a LABC will have no concern on allowing a scheme member carrying out the work, because their scheme is responsible for verification of qualifications (regardless of actual competency). However, if the LABC is required to check competency, as suggested by this thread, how are their qualified to do this? There are so many different courses, qualifications, it must be vary hit & miss.

OP, just sit down with the decision maker and find out why you have been declined.

PS When I had an extension done, I paid fees for the building work, and fees for the double glazed windows I installed.

 

[Pete999]

Yes the JIB recognise 2391 as well 2360 which was the first step into training as an electrician back when I started.

I'm unaware of 2391 not being recognised any more.

Thanks for the input. Could you shed some light as to what you concider to be a qualified electrician then?

Not sure if 2391 is not recognised, but I think the test and Inspect quals I believe have been split into to separate quals.

Some of the younger blokes can help you out with what quals are needed, mind you quals on their own don't necessarily make you an Electrician, experience is an essential part as well, I qualified way back when Jesus played in goal for Bethlehem.

 

[Midwest]

Perhaps a LABC should be responsible for verifying applicants qualifications for applications to a scheme, and not the schemes themselves

PS Not directed at you DAvid.

 

[David Prosser]

Between I think 94 and 99 There was no level 3 as you go into the NVQ stage after level 2.

 

[David Prosser]

Perhaps a LABC should be responsible for verifying applicants qualifications for applications to a scheme, and not the schemes themselves

PS Not directed at you DAvid.

No problem can't be at me as I'm not in a scheme!

 

[Midwest]

Good point. You'll have to see what qualifications your LABC expect to see. Would a JIB card (electrician etc) support your competency along with a C&G 2382(BS7671)?

 

[Diddy]

I am not saying I agree with the situation, but that is how it is. People DO get refused admission, there was a guy on here just the other day. I believe you need at least a level 3 qual now, not some 3 week bronze rubbish as suggested to become a scheme member. Personally, I don't see how a complete novice could do a short course and get past any assessment I have ever had from any of my former schemes. You might be right about some areas, but as far as I am aware, from general information and from chatting to my local BCO, they adopt the simple rules I outlined.

From someone who was pontificating about ME talking out of my proverbial....
1. The regs IS a level 3 course and meets the requirement
2. I have already told you......You could get your Aunt Beryl to do the 18 day course and then apply to join...I have never heard of anybody being outright refused membership EVER....retest at the very worst.
3. These courses are still very much active
4. "As far as im aware" - As far as im aware does not make it a fact does it ?

And im the one talking out of my proverbial....seems i know at least as much about part p and I don't have to deal with it every day....frightening that so many people misunderstand what it is that is requires to undertake notifiable work.

 

[Diddy]

Unbelievable what some people are spouting and stating it as fact...
BS 7671 IS a level 3 exam and Does entitle you to register with a scheme and they use the level 3 as their acceptance.

C&G 2360 is no longer a recognized qualification, 2391

Thank god they are on the back of my current JIB gold card.....They may well be superseded and replaced but they are still fully recognized....Think about what you are saying ....That some spark who has been working in the game for 40years no is somehow no longer qualified because some new easier exam has replaced what went before....And we ALL know it's easier don't we ?
Some would be better just commenting "I actually don't know"....