Petition: Make working with electricity a criminal offence unless qualified

[Darkwood]

Yes I agree,if you kill or injure somebody no matter if time served or what ever , your arse will be in a sling, the industry has gone down hill over the years, I have seen it with my own eyes, times have changed to, the nonsense of domestic and industrial today to different animals , in my day it was just another electrical job no matter what. Skills have diminished very sad state of affairs IMO.

I'm 43 and seen the same, you can now even get through a full apprenticeship without what I would call basic Maths and Physics knowledge which was a requirement in my days, this was comfirmed when a latter year apprentice didn't know 3 x 8, and this was 1998, the training industry has become profit biased at the cost of standards while governments lowered them to meet a political agenda.

Yes I may be ignoring technology here where you can look up any query withing minutes but what gives an impression to any customer is a answer on the dot without saying sorry give me a few minutes while I google it!

 

[Alessandro]

I'm the OP, I should make it clear that that's not my petition, that's THE petition on this matter that someone else started. I am just an apprentice electrician who is too busy studying and has time for nothing else.

I am only asking, and the responses on this thread are showing me that there is a problem, and that there are possible solutions. Does anyone know how it works in countries like Germany, Sweden, or other European countries? What about Canada or Australia?

I can't agree with the attitude some posters have, i.e. the typical "there is nothing that can be done, let it be" attitude. You can't stop people from doing dangerous things that can harm themselves and others, but you can have a system that discourages people from doing certain things.

 

[bigspark17]

I'm the OP, I should make it clear that that's not my petition, that's THE petition on this matter that someone else started. I am just an apprentice electrician who is too busy studying and has time for nothing else.

I am only asking, and the responses on this thread are showing me that there is a problem, and that there are possible solutions. Does anyone know how it works in countries like Germany, Sweden, or other European countries? What about Canada or Australia?

I can't agree with the attitude some posters have, i.e. the typical "there is nothing that can be done, let it be" attitude. You can't stop people from doing dangerous things that can harm themselves and others, but you can have a system that discourages people from doing certain things.

i agree with op. Let it be. Or it is what it is attitude is terrible, steps should always be taken to improve all time and keep standards high. I blame recent industry slips on eu legislation another reason to get out of eu imo.

 

[KennyKen]

Ive already posted the Australians way of doing things!

 

[RobinMitchell]

Here is a question for those who think that the petition should go through.

I have a degree in electronics, I have always been hands on (having a workshop with MANY tools including bandsaws, drill presses, woodworking bits, table saws etc etc...), and I am a very capable person. I am taking one of these so called "Short Courses", which clearly teaches all the theory behind domestic electrics. I have been fact checking the books to ensure that they are the real deal and have been very cautious. One of these books was written by the course for the sake of question asking and the latest book they sent me was Level 2 NVQ 2365.

The course also sent me the on site guide and the latest BS7671 (they are legit as they have the nice little hologram on the front page). Once I have done these few more modules I will start my practical training on-site so that they are sure I am able to do jobs to a good standard. (6 weeks in total).

Now if this petition where to go through I probably would not be able to start my own business so that I may work for myself. If I pass this course with flying colours then why should I not be able to install electrics? What makes me unqualified? Experience? What is experience? Just because I trained myself does not make me incapable. Or are you saying that it does?

Electricity is my life and has been since I was 12. I studied it at Warwick University and got a 2:1 in electronics which covered more theory than any electrician course can even touch. Three phase induction motors? Yup. High voltage switching? Yup (IGBJT), transformers and isolation? Yup.

I dont want to offend anyone here and I joined this forum so that I can learn from others. I also know that lately I have been making myself look like a bit of a fool (Wago Connectors and bathroom switches anyone ?), but electricity is in my blood.

So my question: With MY knowledge am I capable of doing electrics after this course I am taking?

 

[snowhead]

l "there is nothing that can be done, let it be"

I can't see any post suggesting that.

Most people are realists and can see that to get from the position the UK is in now to a fully regulated system is impracticable.

To get to a fully regulated system would have to be along the lines of the following;

Agreement on the minimum qualifications / training/ experience that class someone as Qualified and suitable for assessment in each sector of electrical work.

Determine where the boundaries are in working in each sector for those employed.

Determine the boundaries for legislation i.e can anyone fit a 13amp plug unqualified.

Setting up of Assessment Centres, strictly monitored by a single organisation to maintain the same standard across the Country.

Set up a system of inspection for work done on properties.

Determining the level and frequency of assessment /reassessment.

Assessing everyone currently working within the industry and those not currently working who may return later eg working out of the Country.

From a start date;
No one under the age of 21 would be allowed to work unsupervised

Everyone else would have 5 years (or more) depending on the number of Assessment Centre places available.


If after the above working with Electricity becomes an offence unless qualified, there will be a massive shortfall of qualified people.
There probably aren't enough people currently working to take on all the work and many that are would not want to go through the assessments.

Whilst the above is happening then we might as well bring Driving under more strict regulation and retesting as far more people die through poorly trained drivers than from badly installed electrical or gas installations.

And not forgetting the Food sector, as I mentioned in an earlier post.

 

[snowhead]

Here is a question for those who think that the petition should go through.
I will start my practical training on-site so that they are sure I am able to do jobs to a good standard. (6 weeks in total).

What is experience? Just because I trained myself does not make me incapable. Or are you saying that it does?
With MY knowledge am I capable of doing electrics after this course I am taking?

No, you will not be capable of working on your own.

Would 6 weeks have been enough for HV switching or for Electronics or any of the other sectors you're qualified and experienced in?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

A strict Gas type single scheme registration system is needed for the electrical contracting industry, with a single apprenticeship style route into the trade, with qualified persons being awarded a qualification of professional recognition.
That way any person or business engaging an electrician would know that a high standard of work can be expected,and if not they have a one stop route of complaint.
That should not outlaw DIY electrical work, people would have the choice....take the risk of doing it themselves,or use a recognised professional.
Under the current system i'ts a lottery for anyone wanting to use the professionals, anyone going through the phone book has no idea what they will end up with if they employ an electrician..NICEIC....ELECSA...NAPIT...STROMA...ALEC -TRICIAN....confusing or what?
But it's not going to happen is it? All the short-cut routes into the trade are generating more and more wannabees all parting with their cash into the scams grubby paws.
Dream on.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Here is a question for those who think that the petition should go through.

I have a degree in electronics, I have always been hands on (having a workshop with MANY tools including bandsaws, drill presses, woodworking bits, table saws etc etc...), and I am a very capable person. I am taking one of these so called "Short Courses", which clearly teaches all the theory behind domestic electrics. I have been fact checking the books to ensure that they are the real deal and have been very cautious. One of these books was written by the course for the sake of question asking and the latest book they sent me was Level 2 NVQ 2365.

The course also sent me the on site guide and the latest BS7671 (they are legit as they have the nice little hologram on the front page). Once I have done these few more modules I will start my practical training on-site so that they are sure I am able to do jobs to a good standard. (6 weeks in total).

Now if this petition where to go through I probably would not be able to start my own business so that I may work for myself. If I pass this course with flying colours then why should I not be able to install electrics? What makes me unqualified? Experience? What is experience? Just because I trained myself does not make me incapable. Or are you saying that it does?

Electricity is my life and has been since I was 12. I studied it at Warwick University and got a 2:1 in electronics which covered more theory than any electrician course can even touch. Three phase induction motors? Yup. High voltage switching? Yup (IGBJT), transformers and isolation? Yup.

I dont want to offend anyone here and I joined this forum so that I can learn from others. I also know that lately I have been making myself look like a bit of a fool (Wago Connectors and bathroom switches anyone ?), but electricity is in my blood.

So my question: With MY knowledge am I capable of doing electrics after this course I am taking?

I think its outrageous that after a 6week short course and registration with a cps that you could be doing work in an unsuspecting customers home with no experience.

 

[Darkwood]

Back in the day when I took my apprenticeship you were expected to be high graded in maths and I don't mean the level the schools are pushing out now, you needed to be high graded in a science with a preference to physics but not essentially. You were given an aptitude test which included aspects of maths and physics, the expected fail rate was about 20% of this entry test.

Once on the course you did a block release format of so many weeks working as an apprentice with a company and so many weeks at college, this lasted 3-4 yrs depending if you added an extra advanced course. Other module courses were available but block was the most common.

On finishing your course you had a few exams to take, one a full written exam to ensure you understood the concept of the job you were training for and the theory behind it all (Very tough), then a further test which was a multi-choice one (not that hard IMHO).

If you successfully passed you were recommended to give yourself 2yrs on site before taking your AM2 to ensure your skill level was high enough to pass.

In the day, the exam was tough with high failure rates, the AM2 was tough with high failure rates but when you completed it all you had a decent income and a lot of respect in the trade, then the government stepped in and yrs and yrs of dumbing down for a political agenda has seen an Industry now been mocked by other trades, full of 'path of gold' short courses that are barely recognisable from the main full apprenticeship route, overseen by numerous profit based Scheme providers who put profit before action when it comes to ensuring their members are competent enough.
IMHO these short courses are great for a stepping stone for people already in a related trade and familiar with electrics who just need the paperwork and a little guidence, what they are been advertised as and misrepresented as are wonder courses giving the zero to hero message that you can just take one and your competent to wire someones house, well on paper you may be but as many are finding, they are way out of their depth because they have little to no experience and have never been trained onsite, both a must IMO to do a safe, compliant job.

The victims here are those been conned into these often expensive courses who are often getting a reality check when they enter the big world finding that no-one will take them on and they are fighting for work in a saturated market, and the course organises are knowingly doing it for it brings in a tidy profit. If you think about it, you had to have an apprenticeship to take a college course when I did it, this ensured you were getting the experience required over the yrs you were been taught and also that the jobs were out there, now you can sit at home download a course, take a test and in theory be rewiring someones house in 3 to 5weeks - this scares me alot.

Now in defense of those taking the courses, they are often unaware of all this and there are those that IMHO have taken the extra steps, put in the extra work and through detemination and getting up everytime they were knocked back have become a success but these are a minority and we do have members on here who are this minority and I'll happily help and take my hat off to but from yrs of reading the questions posed and the stories told by what were tagged the Electrical Trainee, many have turned away from the trade and lost large sums of money doing so

 

[UNG]

Here is a question for those who think that the petition should go through.

I have a degree in electronics, I have always been hands on (having a workshop with MANY tools including bandsaws, drill presses, woodworking bits, table saws etc etc...), and I am a very capable person. I am taking one of these so called "Short Courses", which clearly teaches all the theory behind domestic electrics. I have been fact checking the books to ensure that they are the real deal and have been very cautious. One of these books was written by the course for the sake of question asking and the latest book they sent me was Level 2 NVQ 2365.

You are typical of those who make a rash assessment of what an electrician is, you want to take an apprentice trained and experienced electrician throw it in a "microwave" and reproduce in 5 weeks what would take 3 -5 years believe me where ever you start from it doesn't work like that.

The course also sent me the on site guide and the latest BS7671 (they are legit as they have the nice little hologram on the front page). Once I have done these few more modules I will start my practical training on-site so that they are sure I am able to do jobs to a good standard. (6 weeks in total).

So you have the nice shiny books and you are going to do some practical training and someone is going to sign you off as good to go

Now if this petition where to go through I probably would not be able to start my own business so that I may work for myself. If I pass this course with flying colours then why should I not be able to install electrics? What makes me unqualified? Experience? What is experience? Just because I trained myself does not make me incapable. Or are you saying that it does?

I think in the interests of safety it is not unreasonable I passed the C&G exams but I still had to work under the supervision of a qualified electrician on site for a number of years and having completed my apprenticeship I couldn't become an approved electrician for a further 2 years

Electricity is my life and has been since I was 12. I studied it at Warwick University and got a 2:1 in electronics which covered more theory than any electrician course can even touch. Three phase induction motors? Yup. High voltage switching? Yup (IGBJT), transformers and isolation? Yup.

Really shows how much research you haven't done. I assume you are referring to the 17 day / 5 week training system

I dont want to offend anyone here and I joined this forum so that I can learn from others. I also know that lately I have been making myself look like a bit of a fool (Wago Connectors and bathroom switches anyone ?), but electricity is in my blood.

So my question: With MY knowledge am I capable of doing electrics after this course I am taking?

Or are you intending to what more and more are doing and rely on that crutch to prop you your lacking knowledge called a forum

Ask yourself the question strip away all the degree crap you have put forward and look at what the 3 year or as I did 5 years worth of C&G courses teach you and then decide
How much knowledge will you have of the choice and selection of wiring systems, distribution equipment and accessories and that is just for installation. Then there is fault finding a skill all on it's own and very much neglected by these train you quick courses
All the theory does not necessarily make a good all round electrician after spending the last 40 years in this industry I've seen quite a range of electricians with varying skillsets and abilities some who where happy to bimble on some keen to expand their knowledge and skills into specialist areas

 

[solarsavings]

A strict Gas type single scheme registration system

The gas industry has been asking for that for years. It will never happen.

 

[andyb]

I think its outrageous that after a 6week short course and registration with a cps that you could be doing work in an unsuspecting customers home with no experience.

Well that's a step up from my 1st 25 years in the industry, when you did not need to do a course of any length and had no need to register with anyone to do work in an unsuspecting customers home. Just call yourself an electrician.

Maybe we should go back to that.

 

[RobinMitchell]

Sounds like that there are electricians here who feel threatened about others joining the industry. Almost reminds me of a closed society like the medical profession where people are handpicked because they know someone. People typically take apprenticeships because they either lack the ability to go to University, lack the experience or the competency to teach themselves.

If I have learned anything about the field so far is that it is concerned with safety more than anything else. So long as you choose the correct wiring, consider the environmental effects (like grouping), consider location, use the right conduits there is NO reason why someone like myself cannot become an electrician.

Fault finding? Thats funny because I have had plenty of fault finding experience, not just in wiring but in circuit boards as well.

A course like this is unsuitable for someone who has never looked at electricity and I agree that someone who has no previous knowledge should be able to go straight into industry. But for someone like me, this course is a great way to get into it considering the fact that I am already a proven engineer.

There are two ways that people here can respond to such courses:

A) Be a grumpy old man who sticks to the past and rejects the idea of someone taking a course
B) Accept the inevitable and do their best to assist such people to ensure that their practices are safe

If there are people here who genuinely think that someone like me is incapable because of this course (despite the fact that I have previous experience with electricity and electronics), then it just goes to show how little they know.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Well that's a step up from my 1st 25 years in the industry, when you did not need to do a course of any length and had no need to register with anyone to do work in an unsuspecting customers home. Just call yourself an electrician.

Maybe we should go back to that.

Or make what's required to be an approved electrician the minimum standard...

 

[Leesparkykent]

Hell would freeze over before I even considered employing a short course electrician...

 

[andyb]

Or make what's required to be an approved electrician the minimum standard...

How do you get to approved electrician without working as an electrician?

 

[sean_ork]

And your point is what,

My point is clear, and you've made it for me - you clearly deem yourself to be competent to carry out tasks which you hold no formal qualifications in, that's fair enough.


Nigel Gresham also considered himself competent - I expect there have been lots of damage, injury and deaths due to folks assuming their own competence - the premise of the petition is flawed and simply not enforceable.

 

[Leesparkykent]

How do you get to approved electrician without working as an electrician?

For new entrants an apprenticeship or as a mate whilst doing an evening course. Part 2, part 3, nvq3, 2394 and2395 with the experience that goes along with it. Either way should take a minimum of 3 years whilst gaining practical experience working along side approved electricians. Not 6weeks in a classroom.

 

[snowhead]

Sounds like that there are electricians here who feel threatened about others joining the industry.

Makes no difference to me personally.

1. I've never been employed in Domestics.
2. I've been employed for nearly 50 years, so I'll be out of it shortly.

But why would someone with your apparent previous capabilities want to train to do Domestic installs?

People typically take apprenticeships because they either lack the ability to go to University, lack the experience or the competency to teach themselves.

Why would you assume even if people had the ability to go to Uni that that would be their first choice.

If I have learned anything about the field so far is that it is concerned with safety more than anything else. So long as you choose the correct wiring, consider the environmental effects (like grouping), consider location, use the right conduits there is NO reason why someone like myself cannot become an electrician.

You're in for a massive wake up call when you get out into the real world.

A course like this is unsuitable for someone who has never looked at electricity and I agree that someone who has no previous knowledge should be able to go straight into industry. But for someone like me, this course is a great way to get into it considering the fact that I am already a proven engineer. .

You may well be more capable of learning than some, but the problem is the current system doesn't test for previous suitable knowledge and experience.
It allows someone who may have been a shelf stacker ( even by choice as opposed to going to Uni) to work unsupported within a matter of weeks

If there are people here who genuinely think that someone like me is incapable because of this course (despite the fact that I have previous experience with electricity and electronics), then it just goes to show how little they know.

Quite the reverse, YOU don't know how little YOU know.

That's one of the problems with self teaching.

 

[Dave OCD]

Sounds like that there are electricians here who feel threatened about others joining the industry. Almost reminds me of a closed society like the medical profession where people are handpicked because they know someone. People typically take apprenticeships because they either lack the ability to go to University, lack the experience or the competency to teach themselves.

If I have learned anything about the field so far is that it is concerned with safety more than anything else. So long as you choose the correct wiring, consider the environmental effects (like grouping), consider location, use the right conduits there is NO reason why someone like myself cannot become an electrician.

Fault finding? Thats funny because I have had plenty of fault finding experience, not just in wiring but in circuit boards as well.

A course like this is unsuitable for someone who has never looked at electricity and I agree that someone who has no previous knowledge should be able to go straight into industry. But for someone like me, this course is a great way to get into it considering the fact that I am already a proven engineer.

There are two ways that people here can respond to such courses:

A) Be a grumpy old man who sticks to the past and rejects the idea of someone taking a course
B) Accept the inevitable and do their best to assist such people to ensure that their practices are safe

If there are people here who genuinely think that someone like me is incapable because of this course (despite the fact that I have previous experience with electricity and electronics), then it just goes to show how little they know.

That is SO misguided and actually quite worrying. I'd say there are plenty of people who go to University who don't have the required intelligence and other essential attributes to become a good electrician. I know of several with meaningless degrees who are either unemployed or flipping burgers for example.
And if you really believe you can teach yourself everything without any mentoring from a decent and experienced tradesman you're clearly deluded ! No offence intended just my opinion.

 

[Adam W]

Here is a question for those who think that the petition should go through.

I have a degree in electronics, I have always been hands on (having a workshop with MANY tools including bandsaws, drill presses, woodworking bits, table saws etc etc...), and I am a very capable person. I am taking one of these so called "Short Courses", which clearly teaches all the theory behind domestic electrics. I have been fact checking the books to ensure that they are the real deal and have been very cautious. One of these books was written by the course for the sake of question asking and the latest book they sent me was Level 2 NVQ 2365.

The course also sent me the on site guide and the latest BS7671 (they are legit as they have the nice little hologram on the front page). Once I have done these few more modules I will start my practical training on-site so that they are sure I am able to do jobs to a good standard. (6 weeks in total).

Now if this petition where to go through I probably would not be able to start my own business so that I may work for myself. If I pass this course with flying colours then why should I not be able to install electrics? What makes me unqualified? Experience? What is experience? Just because I trained myself does not make me incapable. Or are you saying that it does?

Electricity is my life and has been since I was 12. I studied it at Warwick University and got a 2:1 in electronics which covered more theory than any electrician course can even touch. Three phase induction motors? Yup. High voltage switching? Yup (IGBJT), transformers and isolation? Yup.

I dont want to offend anyone here and I joined this forum so that I can learn from others. I also know that lately I have been making myself look like a bit of a fool (Wago Connectors and bathroom switches anyone ?), but electricity is in my blood.

So my question: With MY knowledge am I capable of doing electrics after this course I am taking?

I don't think the petition should go through, partly because there need to be more ways into the industry than working for your dad or uncle, but I also disagree with your opinion that a degree in electronics somehow automatically qualifies you to do anything you consider 'a step down' from what you were doing before.

I've worked with people who had backgrounds in electronics, computers, management etc and they were the worst - they thought they knew it all so wouldn't accept the benefit of anyone else's experience, instead throwing their weight around and demanding snappy answers as to how to do what should be the simplest tasks. I worked with one guy who kept going on about how he was on a 6 figure salary and could design complicated door entry systems and networked this that and the other; that's all good and well but he was being employed to wire light switches, which he didn't have a clue about.

There is a need to put a stop to people leaving a training centre after a short course in a classroom or on the internet, getting 'electrician' signwritten on a van after their name and go around passing them selves off as that onto the unsuspecting public, but the solution is not with knee-jerk reactions and appointing a body of jobsworths to create unnecessary hoops for everyone to jump through. I appreciate what the JIB are trying to do, but they are at best infuriating to deal with.

Think about driving a car - while it may be possible for someone who has never even sat in a real car to describe perfectly the theory behind driving it, maybe even be able to work a simulator, it would be dangerous to chuck them a car key and say "off you go". You need the practical experience in real world situations, and the way to gain that is under the supervision of someone more experienced.

 

[KennyKen]

Please the university spill... I've worked with Boil in the Bag sparks. Who have come from white collar professional background. Asking questions like what's an intermediate switch.

 

[sean_ork]

Please the university spill... I've worked with Boil in the Bag sparks. Who have come from white collar professional background. Asking questions like what's an intermediate switch.

Let's not be under the impression its just the 5WWs that seem not to know the basics :vanish:


http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...s/109076-3-way-lighting-circuit-question.html

 

[Martyc]

I've spent 3 years at college and there's a lot I wouldn't feel comfortable doing without reassurance, despite having been a maintenance manager, project managing property refurbishments and leading and managing teams of tradespeople from plumbers, plasterers, chippys and builders, being responsible for over £1m of turnover, yet that makes me no more of a tradesman.

Til you're there, on the tools doing it, all the theory in the world isn't going to help you (or me) and despite being in that boat myself, I understand why it's so hard to get into the trade properly. Who would want to pay someone who will cost the company time and money before they are actually earning it and their keep?

Or you could look at it like this, just because you know the theory behind holding a pencil, does that make you an artist?

 

[7029 dave]

That is SO misguided and actually quite worrying. I'd say there are plenty of people who go to University who don't have the required intelligence and other essential attributes to become a good electrician. I know of several with meaningless degrees who are either unemployed or flipping burgers for example.
And if you really believe you can teach yourself everything without any mentoring from a decent and experienced tradesman you're clearly deluded ! No offence intended just my opinion.

I just can't add anything to this Dave, you have summed it up.

 

[KennyKen]

Let's not be under the impression its just the 5WWs that seem not to know the basics :vanish:


http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...s/109076-3-way-lighting-circuit-question.html

Oh Dear!

 

[Dcf]

A criminal offence to work with electricity.no one could enforce that one tbh.
an end to short course "installers" would be more beneficial.
i get my brother to give me a hand now and again.
hes not a spark but is trained in comms,hv,Plc and motors and the like with his rov work
before that he was a coded welder doing power turbine refurbs so it's not like he has no crossover skills.
now ,I pay him the same rate that I pay another spark who sometimes helps me out.
is he as good ?....
no way
he is way too slow for electrical contracting work.its not his line of work that I know.
if I had my spark fitting something mundane like sockets the spark would have fitted 6 to my brothers 2
my spark is a 25 year + veteran of electrical contracting and is so meticulous and neat and tidy that I always introduce him as my towns no2 sparky to any of my customers who don't know him ,so you can't compare apples and oranges as the bar is set high.
but.....there s a massive difference between a proper all rounder and someone who has a bit of a clue but still needs a bit of schooling.
Oh aye who is no1 ......... Me of course!

 

[Alessandro]

What is Electrical Trainee?

 

[Darkwood]

What is Electrical Trainee?

Electrical Trainee is a derogative term for a short course, '5 week wonder', as a forum we don't like the term as it paints everyone with the same brush but it is aimed at the zero to hero sector who have no electrical knowledge or experience and 5 weeks later they are allowed to walk into someones house and wire it with no on site knowledge and only paper theory. These courses should only be aimed at those with electrical background but due to money hungry profit based training schemes they promise the world for thousands of pounds and leave the majority of those passing out of their depth and un-employable by establised companies.