New sub board for shed swa advice.

[Jcamerz]

Hi guys new to the forum after bit of advice. My family are installing a new shed in the garden and require a lot of power ie few sockets, lights. I am planning of running a swa fed from 32a mcb from the main board to a sub board.
Have a question-
Shall I install the new 32a mcb in the main board on the RCD side or main switch side?
Thanks

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Don't think earthing a cables conductive part is classed as requiring high integrity earthing.

My reply was in response to your statement about applying the argument to radials and damaged CPCs.

 

[Dave OCD]

92 posts including this one, but any armour anywhere will have rusted away before NBP admits he's wrong.

 

[sparksburnout]

Ok, how about a supply to an outside socket or shed where you're coming from an existing socket on a RFC, plasterboard walls so you put in a single dry lining box for a DP switch or SFCU and drill through to outside behind the box, how do you earth the armour at that termination ? Yes I know you could terminate into a box outside but why create another unnecessary connection when you can earth the armour at the other end ? Or you could have an insulated CU to take your SWA from with no space around it for an additional connection box and no way of drilling a 20mm hole into it.

I don't understand your argument here to be honest. You have got to gland the SWA to something have you not?? So just earth it at that point. I often use a Wiska box on the outside wall, not forgetting the danger 230V label

 

[sparksburnout]

Ok, how about a supply to an outside socket or shed where you're coming from an existing socket on a RFC, plasterboard walls so you put in a single dry lining box for a DP switch or SFCU and drill through to outside behind the box, how do you earth the armour at that termination ? Yes I know you could terminate into a box outside but why create another unnecessary connection when you can earth the armour at the other end ? Or you could have an insulated CU to take your SWA from with no space around it for an additional connection box and no way of drilling a 20mm hole into it.

I don't understand your argument here to be honest. You have got to gland the SWA to something have you not?? So just earth it at that point. I often use a Wiska box on the outside wall, not forgetting the danger 230V label

 

[netblindpaul]

Going back to basics is needed here so that the requirements can be understood.
I can assure you that I am NOT wrong, (this is NOT just my opinion), if you listen to, read and understand the posts I have made then this can be understood.
Firstly it must be understood that HASAWA applies to all persons when at work, employed or self-employed if people can't understand that then they are beyond help.
Is this understood by all, or are many of you going to disagree and state that you are beyond the law of the land when you are at work, and thus the law does not apply to you because you are some sort of special being?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think your problem is that you are confusing a ‘task of work’ with a ‘domestic installation’.
If no task of work is being conducted, neither the HASAWA or the EAWR applies.
If a task of work is being conducted the HASAWA and EAWR would apply to that task, not to the domestic installation.
It may be that the task of work is to make safe a dangerous condition in the domestic installation.
How would such a task be able to be conducted if the domestic installation must first comply with HASWA and the EAWR?

 

[Colin33]

No you wouldn’t, you can’t have exposed metal connected to two different earthing systems like that. You insulate the armour at the load end of the submain so that it does not introduce another potential.

Also leaving a TT system with such a high Ra is unacceptable.

That's what I thought, so instead of the scenario I suggested you'd use a plastic enclosure for the swa instead of metal, and boot over the swa gland so no exposed metal is left? (lets leave the 1667 ohm TT topic for another day, sometimes it's impossible to achieve below 200 when your installation is on a cliff edge, or on a sandy beach for example ;-))

 

[netblindpaul]

I think your problem is that you are confusing a ‘task of work’ with a ‘domestic installation’.
If no task of work is being conducted, neither the HASAWA or the EAWR applies.
If a task of work is being conducted the HASAWA and EAWR would apply to that task, not to the domestic installation.
It may be that the task of work is to make safe a dangerous condition in the domestic installation.
How would such a task be able to be conducted if the domestic installation must first comply with HASWA and the EAWR?

I am fully understanding the situation, and this is not just my opinion it is that of many others, and other organisations.
The task of work is being done when the domestic electrical installation is being designed, constructed, inspected and tested, or do you not charge for the domestic installations you do Spin?
Do the rest of you do all your domestic installations works as DIY, therefore no money changes hands and nobody gets paid for any domestic installations works?
I know that the domestic installation industry is a race to the bottom, but I don't believe that no one gets paid for domestic installations works.
How do all these domestic electricians and those working for builders doing new builds pay for their food and mortgages of they are not at work and being paid when they are doing the electrical works?

Thus the law does apply to people doing electrical installations works, whether employed or self employed when they are at work doing the work.
Therefore the Health and Safety At Work etc. Act 1974 applies to these people when they are at work, if it doesn't why to all these house building companies make such a bloody massive thing about Health and Safety on their construction sites.

So is every house building company in the country wrong then Spin? Because that is what you are saying. You are saying that HASAWA & EAWR do not apply to domestic works.

 

[Octopus]

How on earth did we go from whether there was a “correct end” to earth SWA to this garbage ......

 

[Dave OCD]

Precisely Murdoch ! That issue seems to have been quietly put to one side.....

 

[Deleted member 26818]

My fault, I just keep on answering him.
Time to call it a day I think.
I shall go see if I can get a horse to drink some water.

 

[bigbob1]

RCD in house, so you are protecting the cable and can see if your freezer has tripped out.
RCD in shed for circuits also. Nuisance tripping means they are working! If the shed or house RCD go then good that’s what they are meant to do! Find the fault!
Do not export the TNCS earth! Your equipotential zone stops 1.5m away from the footprint of the building containing the supply!
TT the shed like you would with any external buildings and portacabins etc

 

[bigbob1]

If anyone can think of any other use for an SWA gland other than being on the end of an SWA cable then please feel free to share your stupidity with all.

 

[Wilko]

... The task of work is being done when the domestic electrical installation is being designed, constructed, inspected and tested ... Thus the law does apply to people doing electrical installations works, whether employed or self employed when they are at work doing the work...

Hi - this has got a little complicated for my brain, but it seems @spinlondon (#96) post and yours agree ... That's me running for cover .

 

[Wilko]

If anyone can think of any other use for an SWA gland other than being on the end of an SWA cable then please feel free to share your stupidity with all.

I'm gunna be smart and not reply to that ... dohhhh

 

[DPG]

Bigbob, can you give me the reg number that says all external buildings should be TT'd please.

 

[DPG]

Duplicate post deleted.

 

[netblindpaul]

How on earth did we go from whether there was a “correct end” to earth SWA to this garbage ......

OK Murdoch, I'll tell you, because, it seems that nobody understands the requirements of the law when it comes to safe electrical installations.
It seems that people think they are exempt from the law when working on domestic jobs.
They are not, and HASAWA and EAWR are still relevant, after the contractor leaves the premises.
It isn't just my view, it is also that of Her Majesty's Coroners' office.
Now once there is an understanding that HASAWA and EAWR apply to domestic works, and that just because the spark walks away does not end his duty, then we can move forward.
I have explained that those at work have a legal responsibility for things that are under their control bu quoting the legislation.
You really need to understand the laws you have to comply with first then you will understand where I am coming from with regard to the SWA of the cable.
Once HASAWA S3, and S7 are understood, then EAWR S3 you will have a chance of understanding the reason behind why the SWA must be connected to earth at the supply end, not the load end.

 

[Toneyz]

I am fully understanding the situation, and this is not just my opinion it is that of many others, and other organisations.
The task of work is being done when the domestic electrical installation is being designed, constructed, inspected and tested, or do you not charge for the domestic installations you do Spin?
Do the rest of you do all your domestic installations works as DIY, therefore no money changes hands and nobody gets paid for any domestic installations works?
I know that the domestic installation industry is a race to the bottom, but I don't believe that no one gets paid for domestic installations works.
How do all these domestic electricians and those working for builders doing new builds pay for their food and mortgages of they are not at work and being paid when they are doing the electrical works?

Thus the law does apply to people doing electrical installations works, whether employed or self employed when they are at work doing the work.
Therefore the Health and Safety At Work etc. Act 1974 applies to these people when they are at work, if it doesn't why to all these house building companies make such a bloody massive thing about Health and Safety on their construction sites.

So is every house building company in the country wrong then Spin? Because that is what you are saying. You are saying that HASAWA & EAWR do not apply to domestic works.

Why are you still banging on about this I thought that this thread was about a supply to a shed? I am not taking away the importance of the subject but it would have been better to have the debate under a new/separate thread.

 

[bigbob1]

its physics.
And you are not allowed to export a tncs earth without DNO permission.
In fact it is such basic physics I learnt this in year 2 at college.
The regs are a ‘guide book’ not a ‘must do’ book.
You’d best hope I am never an expert witness and you are being prosecuted by us at the HSE.

 

[Pete999]

its physics.
And you are not allowed to export a tncs earth without DNO permission.
In fact it is such basic physics I learnt this in year 2 at college.
The regs are a ‘guide book’ not a ‘must do’ book.
You’d best hope I am never an expert witness and you are being prosecuted by us at the HSE.

So what is the BS regulation No that refers to this issue? Whilst I don't doubt your sincerity, despite your posturing and threats, show the forum some evidence, not in the form of more threats, but as written evidence.

 

[bigbob1]

its physics.
And you aren’t allowed to export a tncs earth without DNO permission.
In fact it is such basic physics I learnt this in year 2 at college.
The regs are a ‘guide book’ not a ‘must do’ book.
You’d best hope I am never an expert witness and you are being prosecuted.
IET guidance note 5
ESQCR 2002
EAWR 89.

‘Touch voltages’ ‘no equipotential zone’

Ta

 

[Pete999]

its physics.
And you aren’t allowed to export a tncs earth without DNO permission.
In fact it is such basic physics I learnt this in year 2 at college.
The regs are a ‘guide book’ not a ‘must do’ book.
You’d best hope I am never an expert witness and you are being prosecuted.
IET guidance note 5
ESQCR 2002
EAWR 89.

‘Touch voltages’ ‘no equipotential zone’

Ta

Thanks for this I'll take a look see, although no regulation No as yet

 

[Wilko]

Hi - apologies if I have misunderstood, is it Reg 411.4.3 you're thinking of ? This Reg notes that PEN conductors are prohibited in consumer's installations. Hopefully the discussion here would not be about doing that (!!!) but just taking L, N and an appropriately sized CPC and protective bonding conductor (if needed) out to the shed.

 

[Pete999]

I can find nothing in the documents referred to, just a regulation no is required, if you are brought before a court of law for dangerous electrical installation practices, then the BS will be a point of reference for any prosecutor, when referring to the EAWR 1981, as you say the Regulations are not a statutory document, but a guide to upholding the EAWR 1981, show us a regulation number from BS 7671 which deals with this issue, and you may get some constructive comments, rather than quoiting 3 documents at random.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Ok, so let me see if I get this straight.
We can’t export TN-C-S because of physics, but if we ask the DNO for permission, then we can.
To verify this, look in GN5, ESQCR and the EAWR.

 

[bigbob1]

Understand the difference between a ‘main earth terminal’ and a ‘earth marshalling terminal’ in respect to taking a supply out of an equipotential zone.
There is also only one use for an SWA gland.
EAWR section 8 May be a bit complicated for some of you but I would read it a few times and adhere to best engineering practises. Not your interpretation of a non statutory document.

 

[Pete999]

Understand the difference between a ‘main earth terminal’ and a ‘earth marshalling terminal’ in respect to taking a supply out of an equipotential zone.
There is also only one use for an SWA gland.
EAWR section 8 May be a bit complicated for some of you but I would read it a few times and adhere to best engineering practises. Not your interpretation of a non statutory document.

What is an earth marshaling terminal? an MET or what, and what is the only use for an SWA gland?

 

[Octopus]

To verify this, look in GN5, ESQCR and the EAWR.

And how many of us have , or have ready access to all of these ?

 

[Pete999]

And how many of us have , or have ready access to all of these ?

Where is Marconi / or Rob when you need them?