EICR some help please

[zenonek]

Hi

Im newto this forum and hello to everybody.

Im experienced electrician with 15 years of experience in all kind of domestic premised. Some commertial, but not many..
Niceic Domestic installer for 15 years.

I dont do many Eicr's, s so have troubles coding things.

I realky trying to work to high standards, hence problems with judging others installations.

A friend asked me to do periodic af a building, with 25 studio flats, very small and easy, 4-5 mcbs.
Generally done ok, but some items bugger me a tillle as i wouldnt do them that way.

Installation is 10 years old, last Eicr done 5 years ago by same Niceic addroved contractor who build it 10 years ago.

On last Eicr no codes, bo recommendations....

But i found some items that needs attention.

• Every single consumer unit have big cable entry hole behind, you can see cavity behing, cons units very dusty inside cause of that, im guesing wind blows , needs to be sealed..... do i code something like this?
• subfeed 10mm 3 core swa coble to every cons unit not terminated right. Basicaly armour cut and wraped with insulation tape... on other side is propertly glanded.... code it??
• consumer units ate 2 rcd split boards, plastic, positioned right by the entry doors, inside every flat, i would recommend to replace them for metal, but .... do i code it as c3?

-each flat have one EM light, no test switch and circuit connected to same Mcb as genetal lighting, meaning 2 x 1.0mm cables into one mcb... code it?
- staircase emergency lights have no test switches...
-Every kitchenette appliance is integrated and have isolator above worktop except Microwaves, they are also integrated on a plug behind... code?
-kitchenettes are very small, hence all of the sockets and appliances isolators above worktops are either above sinks, or within 300 from induction hobs or sinks... code?

And finally landlors supply...

• all external lights permanently on, no sensor or switch, just an mcb.. there used to be a switch but blanked off... code?
• there is 3 phase consumer unit with 40a mcb's to supply each flat, main switch on that board is rated 200a, same as meter, is rated 200a, but main fuses are 100a, but cores from the street looks like 35mm or even bigger. Meter tails installed are 25mm.

I would do the tails to match 200a board capacity, right? ...code???

• meter tails terminated to 200a main switch, actualy one, l3 looks black/dirty, not sure its burn, or just dirty, same behind the switch, on enclosure, it may be dirty, but couldnt confirm is, as whole building deened to be switched off, for which i had no permit.. would you code it?
• 3 ph board not closing propertly, i could see that is resting mostly on msbs, as they were not propertly installed.. is that a code??
• in same board there is a cover that covers l1 l2 l3 terminals after main switch, and is broken, cracked, attachet to main switch with insulation take.... is that a code?

Any help from experienced tester will be appreciated...

Thank you in advance..

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Ok.
Go through them and assign a reg number to each item that it doesn’t comply with. Then in your opinion do you find it to be a C1, C2 or C3?
I’ll give you some feedback when I see what your thinking behind them all is ?

 

[radiohead]

I thought the NICEIC only permits AC's to carry out EICR's, not DI's??

 

[Baddegg]

I thought the NICEIC only permits AC's to carry out EICR's, not DI's??

Won’t matter unless he’s using they logo would it?

 

[zenonek]

Won’t matter unless he’s using they logo would it?

i was about to say that.

I dont mind doing Eicr from time to time, but always making client aware that they will get cert without logo.
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Ok.
Go through them and assign a reg number to each item that it doesn’t comply with. Then in your opinion do you find it to be a C1, C2 or C3?
I’ll give you some feedback when I see what your thinking behind them all is ?

Working on it..

 

[radiohead]

Surprising that your clients are happy for an NICEIC DI to inform them he is not deemed sufficiently competent by the NIC to carry out an EICR but allow him to continue anyway?
Just saying.

 

[davesparks]

Surprising that your clients are happy for an NICEIC DI to inform them he is not deemed sufficiently competent by the NIC to carry out an EICR but allow him to continue anyway?
Just saying.

That would be an incorrect statement, the NICEIC have not made an statement about his competence.
He has not paid the NICEIC the extra money to put their logo on EICR paperwork, this is not making any judgement about their competence.

However the questions in the OP do suggest a lack of knowledge to carry out EICRs, or even electrical work at all.

 

[zenonek]

update..
I wouldn't code any of those. C3 maybe for 527.2.

All our readings are within permitted, an as i said, installation looks very good, except come minor issues.

But i would recommend looking at every single item to improve.
For sure investigate dark spots around main switch, as no evidence of any heat damage to the main switch itself or accessories around.
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emergency lighting not compliant with bs5266 due to lack of testing switches. Turning the mcb will turn off all the lights. ..no code

 

[zenonek]

However the questions in the OP do suggest a lack of knowledge to carry out EICRs, or even electrical work at all.

No eicr experience? I admit, as you said my post sugest that. For me most installations i see everyday in domestic premises qualify for money back
But which part of my post sugest lack of knowledge of electrical work?

 

[davesparks]

No eicr experience? I admit, as you said my post sugest that. For me most installations i see everyday in domestic premises qualify for money back
But which part of my post sugest lack of knowledge of electrical work?

Your suggestion that 25mm meter tails for a supply fused at 100A are too small because the main switch is rated at 200A.
Your comment on the emergency lighting being connected to the normal lighting circuit.

 

[DPG]

And also your question of whether you should code an MCB having two 1mm cables in it.

 

[Risteard]

That would be an incorrect statement, the NICEIC have not made an statement about his competence.
He has not paid the NICEIC the extra money to put their logo on EICR paperwork, this is not making any judgement about their competence.

However the questions in the OP do suggest a lack of knowledge to carry out EICRs, or even electrical work at all.

In fairness it's not about paying the NIC extra money. The reason is that ACs are assessed on periodic inspections if that is part of the scope of works which they undertake. DIs are solely for notifying domestic work in England & Wales. This is all they're assessed on. They can apply to have periodic inspection and testing added but it requires additional assessment.

 

[zenonek]

Your suggestion that 25mm meter tails for a supply fused at 100A are too small because the main switch is rated at 200A.

its what i would do, match tails to the MS, not to the fuse. Fuse can be replaced for a bigger one by anyone, all kind of maintenance people have access.

Your comment on the emergency lighting being connected to the normal lighting circuit.

you got it wrong, it was a comment only, my issue was 2 radials on one mcb, not EL on lighting circuit.

And also your question of whether you should code an MCB having two 1mm cables in it.

I wouldt do it. in fact i failed niceic assesment years ago for same reason. Connected single light to existing circuit.
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In fairness it's not about paying the NIC extra money. The reason is that ACs are assessed on periodic inspections if that is part of the scope of works which they undertake. DIs are solely for notifying domestic work in England & Wales. This is all they're assessed on. They can apply to have periodic inspection and testing added but it requires additional assessment.

And i agree with you 100%

Its the reason i just DONT DO EICR''
Main reasons as someone mentioned already, i would not get the job, without my scheme support (LOGO)
-there are tons of testers that do eicrs for 100-150, with lots of "limitations" within one hour, agency, or landlord, or ins company they just see Satisfactory, nothing else. I wouldnt sleep at night doing that.

If i do one per year, thats it, its because person ordering the test is contractor im working with for years, and he values the way i do electrics, and he is not only after report.

Anyone willing to advise, thank you, but i remember years ago, first time electrical question on similar forum like this one, almost was eaten alive by "old electricians". on the end didnt get my answer, and i thought that what forums are, to help each other! Save it, dont do it please.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

2 cables connected into 1 MCB is still 1 Circuit though, not a cat in hells chance you failed a NIC assessment for that. Every ring main has 2 conductors in 1 MCB
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And getting into a chamber to swap 100A fuses for 200A ain’t something anyone could do.

 

[zenonek]

2 cables connected into 1 MCB is still 1 Circuit though, not a cat in hells chance you failed a NIC assessment for that. Every ring main has 2 conductors in 1 MCB
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And getting into a chamber to swap 100A fuses for 200A ain’t something anyone could do.

yea, but ring is one circuit not 2 radials.
and yes, i have failed, and i thought it was not fair then, but now it does make sense to me.
Or maybe life is just unfair for Di's, ... on one assessment i had no grommet on first socket i was asked to open, explained my self to the guy, builders moved socket without my knowledge slightly to the right, client confirmed that on site.. spend 2 hours showing every possible connection then.
Inspector was satisfied, but in his report included missing grommet, and i was turned down by head office, not the inspector, because of silly builder.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

yea, but ring is one circuit not 2 radials.
and yes, i have failed, and i thought it was not fair then, but now it does make sense to me.
Or maybe life is just unfair for Di's, ... on one assessment i had no grommet on first socket i was asked to open, explained my self to the guy, builders moved socket without my knowledge slightly to the right, client confirmed that on site.. spend 2 hours showing every possible connection then.
Inspector was satisfied, but in his report included missing grommet, and i was turned down by head office, not the inspector, because of silly builder.

2 Radials, in one MCB is one circuit, not 2 circuits.

 

[zenonek]

2 cables connected into 1 MCB is still 1 Circuit though, not a cat in hells chance you failed a NIC assessment for that. Every ring main has 2 conductors in 1 MCB
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And getting into a chamber to swap 100A fuses for 200A ain’t something anyone could do.

not impossible...especially that 200A MS is clearly visible! its what i learned a while ago, protect yourself from stupidity of other people.
it is no code probably, but as inexperienced in eicr im asking for advise, right?

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Ok, the 200A Main switch is irrelevant, there are loads, and I mean loads of three phase boards with 125A Main Switches on 100A Incomers What type of fuses are currently in place, is it a standard 3 phase cutout or is it in a fuse chamber?

 

[zenonek]

Ok.
Go through them and assign a reg number to each item that it doesn’t comply with. Then in your opinion do you find it to be a C1, C2 or C3?
I’ll give you some feedback when I see what your thinking behind them all is ?

Every single consumer unit have big cable entry hole behind, you can see cavity behing, cons units very dusty inside cause of that, im guessing wind blows , needs to be sealed.....
527.1.1 and 527.2.1 c2 or c3


subfeed 10mm 3 core swa cable to every cons unit not terminated right. Basicaly armour cut and wrapped with insulation tape... on other side is property glanded
522.8.5 c2


Consumer units are 2 rcd split boards, plastic, positioned right by the entry doors, inside every flat, i would recommend to replace them for metal, but .... do i code it as c3? -
421.1.201 c3 as located right be the only entrance doors without any enclosure




Every kitchenette appliance is integrated and have isolator above worktop except Microwaves, they are also integrated on a plug behind...
No code, 13a plug behind


kitchenettes are very small, hence all of the sockets and appliances isolators above worktops are either above sinks, or within 300 from induction hobs or sinks.
512.2 no code as no water or heat damage.. just reconfirmed its 100mm from hob


And finally landlors supply... all external lights permanently on, no sensor or switch, just an mcb.. there used to be a switch but blanked off... code?
537.3.1 no functional switching c3, also part l br, as on all the time.


there is 3 phase consumer unit with 40a mcb's to supply each flat, main switch on that board is rated 200a, same as meter, is rated 200a, but main fuses are 100a, but cores from the street looks like 35mm or even bigger. Meter tails installed are 25mm. I would do the tails to match 200a board capacity, right?
no code


meter tails terminated to 200a main switch, actually one, l3 looks black/dirty, not sure its burn, or just dirty, same behind the switch, on enclosure, it may be dirty, but couldn't confirm is, as whole building needed to be switched off, for which i had no permit.. would you code it?
suspected cable incorrect termination. No obvious damage, needs investigation f1

3 ph board not closing properly, i could see that is resting mostly on msbs, as they were not properly installed.. is that a code?? in same board there is a cover that covers l1 l2 l3 terminals after main switch, and is broken, cracked, attached to main switch with insulation take.... is that a code?
134.1.1 c3 as no immediate danger...
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Ok, the 200A Main switch is irrelevant, there are loads, and I mean loads of three phase boards with 125A Main Switches on 100A Incomers What type of fuses are currently in place, is it a standard 3 phase cutout or is it in a fuse chamber?

Just one board, with 40a type b mcbs for each flat.
Original electrical installation certificate is written as one installation.

From 40a mcbs to single phase meters, from meters to flats.

 

[richy3333]

More worrying that a DI is doing commercial work ? NICEIC allow DI to pay more and be assessed for EICRs. It’s a new thing for England PRS changes. With that many questions and the content of the. I’d query if the op is qualified and competent to do the EICR ?

 

[zenonek]

Sorted.
Ive subcontracted eicrs to another company. £90 per flat. Niceic approoved contractors. Happy!
Ill do the remedial works
Let see what they will say.

 

[ChrisElectrical88]

Oh Jesus Christ

 

[zenonek]

can somene please comment on this swa please. I wuldnt do it that way,but need t know if you will find it on yur eir, will you pass it? third core is used as cpc, and armour earthed on the other side

 

[davesparks]

its what i would do, match tails to the MS, not to the fuse. Fuse can be replaced for a bigger one by anyone, all kind of maintenance people have access.

you got it wrong, it was a comment only, my issue was 2 radials on one mcb, not EL on lighting circuit.

That's nonsense, you size cables according to the OCPD rating, not the highest rated switch in a circuit!

2 conductors in one MCB is perfectly acceptable, and is still only one circuit.
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More worrying that a DI is doing commercial work ?

I know, it's absolutely shocking isn't it.

I'll have to stop doing all of the commercial and specialist work I do and get back to domestic work since I am after all 'only a DI'

 

[James]

I have not even got domestic installer, doesn't mean I could not do the work, just that i can't self certify.
therefore i will stick to the easier stuff that requires no silly registration.
like 3 phase motors and controls!!

 

[ChipFanDave]

subfeed 10mm 3 core swa cable to every cons unit not terminated right. Basicaly armour cut and wrapped with insulation tape... on other side is property glanded 522.8.5 c2

How do you know it's not supported correctly? It could be.
As the armour is not being used as the protective conductor as long as one end of the armour is properly glanded and earthed it's ok (but not what I would do either).

 

[zenonek]

there any requirement to fill any gap between the cables and the edge of the qu

subfeed 10mm 3 core swa cable to every cons unit not terminated right. Basicaly armour cut and wrapped with insulation tape... on other side is property glanded 522.8.5 c2

How do you know it's not supported correctly? It could be.
As the armour is not being used as the protective conductor as long as one end of the armour is properly glanded and earthed it's ok (but not what I would do either).

Thank you! what will you say about big hole behind CU to cavity wall? Cavity plasterboard on timber.

 

[Baddegg]

I have not even got domestic installer, doesn't mean I could not do the work, just that i can't self certify.
therefore i will stick to the easier stuff that requires no silly registration.
like 3 phase motors and controls!!

I’ll help ya out mate ??

 

[davesparks]

not impossible...especially that 200A MS is clearly visible! its what i learned a while ago, protect yourself from stupidity of other people.
it is no code probably, but as inexperienced in eicr im asking for advise, right?

So your saying that becuase the main switch is 200A someone might replace 100A fuses with 200A fuses?
If they are going to do that then how do you know they would fit 200A fuses and not 300A or 400A? Maybe you should size everything for a nice round 1000A just in case?

My point here is that trying to 'protect yourself against the stupidity of other people' is impossible and quite pointless.

If someone is going to come along in the future and replace a fuse with one of twice its rating then they aren't going to worry about what is written on any switchgear before they do it!

Sometimes I install a 20A DP switch to isolate external lights on a normal 6A lighting circuit, but I sure as he'll don't wire the whole circuit in 2.5 just because there's a switch rated at 20A in the circuit!

 

[zenonek]

So your saying that becuase the main switch is 200A someone might replace 100A fuses with 200A fuses?
If they are going to do that then how do you know they would fit 200A fuses and not 300A or 400A? Maybe you should size everything for a nice round 1000A just in case?

My point here is that trying to 'protect yourself against the stupidity of other people' is impossible and quite pointless.

If someone is going to come along in the future and replace a fuse with one of twice its rating then they aren't going to worry about what is written on any switchgear before they do it!

Sometimes I install a 20A DP switch to isolate external lights on a normal 6A lighting circuit, but I sure as he'll don't wire the whole circuit in 2.5 just because there's a switch rated at 20A in the circuit!

im not trying to argue with you, and im not asking it it is ok for me to do it, i just do it, and you dont have to agree with it.
and why would someone install 300a fuse if ON THE BOARD SAYS 200A Max.
But HEJ, even if they do im covered, as my TAILS and MS is 200A rated max! (load also matters)

And there is a difference between 20a and 100a in terms of harm it can cause, bad example.

 

[davesparks]

im not trying to argue with you, and im not asking it it is ok for me to do it, i just do it, and you dont have to agree with it.
and why would someone install 300a fuse if ON THE BOARD SAYS 200A Max.
But HEJ, even if they do im covered, as my TAILS and MS is 200A rated max! (load also matters)

And there is a difference between 20a and 100a in terms of harm it can cause, bad example.

The same reason that they would replace a 100A fuse with anything bigger than 100A, a lack of knowledge or common sense.

Yes there is a difference between 20A and 100A, I am well aware of that, but the point is the same, the conductors need only be rated for the OCPD they are protected by not for the rating of whatever switch happens to be installed.

20A can cause a significant amount of harm, in terms of cable sizing, or more specifically incorrect cable sizing, then it can do exactly the same harm as 100A.

 

[zenonek]

The same reason that they would replace a 100A fuse with anything bigger than 100A, a lack of knowledge or common sense.

Yes there is a difference between 20A and 100A, I am well aware of that, but the point is the same, the conductors need only be rated for the OCPD they are protected by not for the rating of whatever switch happens to be installed.

20A can cause a significant amount of harm, in terms of cable sizing, or more specifically incorrect cable sizing, then it can do exactly the same harm as 100A.

according to esqcr and osg meter tails domestic should be at minimum 25mm2, why would that be if 60a fuse installed...maybe because fuse can easy be replaced with 100A...
Im not saying that you are wrong, im just saying I would match tails to MS, unless MS rated lower that fuse. i dont think im wrong either.

 

[123]

according to esqcr and osg meter tails domestic should be at minimum 25mm2, why would that be if 60a fuse installed...maybe because fuse can easy be replaced with 100A...
Im not saying that you are wrong, im just saying I would match tails to MS, unless MS rated lower that fuse. i dont think im wrong either.

If Main Switch is rated lower than the fuse, then you are quite likely to have problems. Main Switch should be rated equal to or higher than the fuse, and the tails should be sized to suit the fuse.

 

[zenonek]

Yes. Didnt want to say that. I dont know why i said that.. makes no sense
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I had diferent scenario in my head 100a fure, 25mm tails and ie 60a isolator with 60a fuse in it..
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It was just an example

 

[davesparks]

according to esqcr and osg meter tails domestic should be at minimum 25mm2, why would that be if 60a fuse installed...maybe because fuse can easy be replaced with 100A...
Im not saying that you are wrong, im just saying I would match tails to MS, unless MS rated lower that fuse. i dont think im wrong either.

Can you post a direct quote from the ESQCR to support this?

The OSG is just a guide and is not regulation, BS7671 does not put any minimum size on meter tails.

You are wrong, conductors are not sized according to the rating of a switch they are connected to!

 

[richy3333]

@davesparks why the disagree For me when you're later criticising the op. I’m confuse?

 

[davesparks]

@davesparks why the disagree For me when you're later criticising the op. I’m confuse?

This is why:

More worrying that a DI is doing commercial work

I'm a DI but I do a lot of commercial and unusual/specialist work so I disagree with the suggestion that a DI shouldn't be doing commercial work.

 

[7029 dave]

This is why:



I'm a DI but I do a lot of commercial and unusual/specialist work so I disagree with the suggestion that a DI shouldn't be doing commercial work.

I know a few electricians that opted for DI that do majority commercial work, only reason to get around the notification scam in the domestic sector.
Its a cheaper option.

 

[radiohead]

That would be an incorrect statement, the NICEIC have not made an statement about his competence.
He has not paid the NICEIC the extra money to put their logo on EICR paperwork, this is not making any judgement about their competence.

However the questions in the OP do suggest a lack of knowledge to carry out EICRs, or even electrical work at all.

Fair point, clearly yours and other subsequent posts show many DI's are doing commercial work and are clearly competent to carry out EICR's, but use the DI route only as a cheaper means of enabling their domestic work to be notified.

 

[richy3333]

This is why:



I'm a DI but I do a lot of commercial and unusual/specialist work so I disagree with the suggestion that a DI shouldn't be doing commercial work.

ah, Ok. Being in Scotland we dont have DI's but I always thought the NICEIC didnt allow commercial/3 phase work under the DI scheme. Thats where my comment was aimed. Obviously wrong.