Fault finding. Mind boggling

[normanton]

I'm stumped on this one. My mate has a two way garage board in his garage. Circuit 1 is lighting, circuit 2 is 3 sockets on a radial. Lighting works fine. Sockets trip main RCD in DB when switched on. 3 sockets are now disconnected. Tried to reset 16A MCB (for radial circuit) and still trips RCD. So... Thought, simple, fault is on cable between DB and first socket. Disconnects live from out of top of MCB and it stays on. But.... When I push cable into top of MCB again, (even though the MCB is switched off), the lights go out (but don't trip) and arc like crazy from the bottom of the MCB). Bearing in mind this cable goes from the DB to the first socket and is disconnected at both ends!! Only things I haven't done is disconnect the neutral as well whilst trying to connect it back in. I realise this is an absolute headache to read. But if you manage to understand, could you give your opinions. Much appreciated, Lee

 

[DPG]

I suspect people will want to know what test results you have got - assuming you haven't just done the 'keep switching it on' method Daz

 

[normanton]

I suspect people will want to know what test results you have got - assuming you haven't just done the 'keep switching it on' method Daz

Haha, all IR results are >299.

 

[NDG Elecs]

The lights stop working you say, is that without the B6 or RCD tripping? Where is it arcing from? Could possibly be the busbar is not in the cage clamps properly or tightened. I have had that tripping out seemingly random circuits before. But if the B16 is off when you try to connect the live in to it, that suggests a neutral fault maybe. Thinking out aloud here so may be off track!

Have you tried a different breaker? Or checked for continuity on the existing one and that you get open cct when it's off.

 

[DPG]

If there's arcing from the bottom of the MCB then there is a bad connection there - can't be an arc if there is a good solid connection made. I would take both MCBs out and all cables (including neutrals) and connect everything up fresh. IR test of all cables including neutrals as well. Daz

 

[normanton]

The lights stop working you say, is that without the B6 or RCD tripping? Where is it arcing from? Could possibly be the busbar is not in the cage clamps properly or tightened. I have had that tripping out seemingly random circuits before. But if the B16 is off when you try to connect the live in to it, that suggests a neutral fault maybe. Thinking out aloud here so may be off track!

Have you tried a different breaker? Or checked for continuity on the existing one and that you get open cct when it's off.

yes that's correct. The 6A MCB doesn't trip which would suggest to me the problem is on the incoming side of the breaker. ie, loose connection on busbar. Will try securing connections now and report back. Lee

 

[Lucien Nunes]

If making a connection to the 16A MCB when off causes the RCD to trip, either it's not really off (unlikely) or the trip resulted from something else being disturbed. You can confirm that the MCB is really opening with an insulation tester, then move on to find what is being disturbed.

A golden rule of fault finding is never to let your mind boggle! There's usually a very simple explanation for everything, which you will invariably find if you break a system down into small parts that can be conclusively proven to be, or not to be, part of the problem. E.g., something that arcs (other than a welder!) is either a poor connection or contact. You've got that symptom so find the cause, never mind RCD tripping or not tripping or whatever, find the cause of the arcing (probably busbar not properly located). Once you've done that, move on to the next bit. etc.

 

[NDG Elecs]

As I said earlier and others have also said check the busbar. I would remove the din rail wholesale with RCD and MCBs attached still and check that the busbar is correctly located in all three cage clamps. As I said loose connections can cause RCD to trip. Are there any signs of heat damage to the MCBs or RCD.

 

[Midwest]

Give your mate the Spanish Inquisition as well. I've been lead on a merry dance, by customers not telling the full 'story'.

 

[NDG Elecs]

Give your mate the Spanish Inquisition as well. I've been lead on a merry dance, by customers not telling the full 'story'.

Yeah, annoys me that one. I often ask whether they have done something they don't don't want to mention for fear of looking stupid! I say I may find the problem much much quicker (and cheaper) if they tell me the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth! The prospect of it being cheaper normally entices them to swallow their pride!

 

[davesparks]

So you're working on a live board poking cables into terminals which is causing arcing to occur?

 

[HandySparks]

Are there any signs of heat damage to the MCBs or RCD.

This was a recent weekend callout. House is about 15 years old, with no significant modifications, so I recon the busbar was installed like this from new.

Note that this is not high current stuff. All the breakers on the affected busbar are 6A. Two alarms and three lighting circuits. Quite surprised at how the busbar has been eroded away. Somewhat amazed that the occupants had only recently noticed anything wrong.

 

[DPG]

Great photos handysparks. Just shows what can happen even as you say at low currents. Daz

 

[ruston]

And a very clear picture of the reason for board fires.

 

[R G]

One thing you have to watch out for is the Wylex NSB breakers and also the equivalent crabtree and the Steeple breakers too , these were all subject to the Electrium recall and breakers should have been checked and sticker fixed on the board , I did quite a few of the recall visits and replaced loads of breakers , but I notice on many call outs with this problem that theres loads out there that didn't get replaced , where sparks have accounts at the wholesalers the use of these boards could be chased , but theres loads that had been bought for cash etc that hadn't ........

 

[Hellmooth]

This was a recent weekend callout. House is about 15 years old, with no significant modifications, so I recon the busbar was installed like this from new.

Note that this is not high current stuff. All the breakers on the affected busbar are 6A. Two alarms and three lighting circuits. Quite surprised at how the busbar has been eroded away. Somewhat amazed that the occupants had only recently noticed anything wrong.

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I had the same with that board and breakers a few months ago in a shop I was doing work in, the busbar was down to the same as in your pic!

 

[DPG]

I bet there's hundreds still out there that haven't been recalled. Thousands even. Daz

 

[ruston]

There was one breaker in particular that you could hear the cage fall back as you picked it up, I think that was the Wylex family.

 

[R G]

This was a recent weekend callout. House is about 15 years old, with no significant modifications, so I recon the busbar was installed like this from new.

Note that this is not high current stuff. All the breakers on the affected busbar are 6A. Two alarms and three lighting circuits. Quite surprised at how the busbar has been eroded away. Somewhat amazed that the occupants had only recently noticed anything wrong.

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I used to fit those boards all the time for SEC and the one thing you had to watch was the correct fitting of the bus bar into the breakers

 

[normanton]

So you're working on a live board poking cables into terminals which is causing arcing to occur?

Yes im working on a live board. If you had read it, you would see that the terminal I was "poking" it into was of an MCB which was switched off. Thanks for your input tho.

 

[davesparks]

Yes im working on a live board. If you had read it, you would see that the terminal I was "poking" it into was of an MCB which was switched off. Thanks for your input tho.

Switched off or safely isolated?

Your testing/fault finding methods in the OP leave a lot to be desired to be honest.
There's no logical reason to be wrong in a garage board with it energised.

 

[normanton]

Well there were two faults after all.
1. The busbar was indeed loose and causing arcing when moved (although this still doesn't explain why, when I attempted to connect the live into the SWITCHED OFF, 16A MCB, it caused the lights to go out and the busbar to arc).
2. After noticing there was no earth to the garage DB....and racking my brains as to why somebody would use yellow as a live conductor (supply to DB was spurred off a socket in the main house via a 3 core SWA ((red, yellow, blue)). Anyway long story short, he had a dead short between live and earth, (trunk if lid jammed the cable) which obviously he couldn't be arsed to find so simply disconnected the red (live) and decided to scrap the earth and then use it as the new live! One of the best I've seen fair play!!

 

[normanton]

Switched off or safely isolated?

Your testing/fault finding methods in the OP leave a lot to be desired to be honest.
There's no logical reason to be wrong in a garage board with it energised.

That's the problem when you've never worked on site. You do everything by the book. It doesn't always work like that I'm afraid my friend.

 

[davesparks]

That's the problem when you've never worked on site. You do everything by the book. It doesn't always work like that I'm afraid my friend.

Not your friend!
I have worked on many sites, and appreciate that sometimes you have to bend the rules.

But a 2 way board in a garage isn't going to be one of those times when you can justify working on a live board.

To be honest your having to ask online about the arcing and lights going off when the MCB moves slightly incident suggests that it would be you who is short on knowledge or experience

 

[Midwest]

Deleted

 

[Dcf]

heres a similar one i had on the 31st december in a rental flat.
water escape from flat above into bathroom ,tenant can't turn lights off.
gets there ,
the pull cord is broken off, the inside has seen bit off water but its dry.
goes to pull the 3036 fuse to change the pull cord hear a bit off a fizzle and the lights stay on with the fuse out!
WTF says i and pulls the cover off to the sound of more fizzling. remove the carrier and find about 2" of seal wire that some lazy arse has plopped on top of the fuse board has dropped down and shorted across the lighting and the next door outgoing terminals.
Remove seal wire and my back feed problem was solved.
never come across this one in all my years at the game.
never presume anything be the moral of the story

 

[HandySparks]

..remove the carrier and find about 2" of seal wire that some lazy arse has plopped on top of the fuse board has dropped down and shorted across the lighting and the next door outgoing terminals....

Nice example of why the IP rating of the top surface of electrical enclosures is required to be better than sides and bottom.

 

[NDG Elecs]

This was a recent weekend callout. House is about 15 years old, with no significant modifications, so I recon the busbar was installed like this from new.

Note that this is not high current stuff. All the breakers on the affected busbar are 6A. Two alarms and three lighting circuits. Quite surprised at how the busbar has been eroded away. Somewhat amazed that the occupants had only recently noticed anything wrong.

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Probably hard to tell but the missing bit of the busbar will have been firmly 'welded' to the clamp on that last MCB. But nice but of damage there. I have had similiar that affected two breakers and to a lesser degree, client wanted me to leave them energised instead of replacing them. Talked them round by saying it's not like scraping the burnt bits of your toast off and then it's fine!

 

[Vitesse]

There was one breaker in particular that you could hear the cage fall back as you picked it up, I think that was the Wylex family.

Which breaker is it that when you tightened them up, the cable clamp feels like the screw has become threaded and just won't tightened up? It's either Wylex or Crabtree, they changed the design in the end so that rather pull the cable clamp towards you it pushes away and clamps the cable or it could be the other way around?

I got hit with a whole load of these in one week after all the wholesalers had closed so bought some spares to keep on the van. Sod's law I haven't come across a problem with one since!

 

[ruston]

Which breaker is it that when you tightened them up, the cable clamp feels like the screw has become threaded and just won't tightened up? It's either Wylex or Crabtree, they changed the design in the end so that rather pull the cable clamp towards you it pushes away and clamps the cable or it could be the other way around?

I got hit with a whole load of these in one week after all the wholesalers had closed so bought some spares to keep on the van. Sod's law I haven't come across a problem with one since!

Yes, it was either , Wylex or Crabtree . The cage was so loose it was full floating lol.
Real pain at low level.
Picture 3 of Handysparks post shows the fortuitous contact when it is not fitted properly.