Help with lighting if you'd be so kind...

[spicler08]

Hi, any help or advice on this would be greatly appreciated...

In my kitchen I'd like to fit some some new downlights under the top cupboards and an LED strip on top of the cupboards. I also already have existing kitchen spotlights in the ceiling. So that's 3 lots of lights (hope you're with me so far!...). All of which I'd like to be connected to a single 3 gang dimmer switch on the wall. (See image attached).

Now I know this can be done but I'd really appreciate any advice on the best way to do it. One of my concerns is the LED strip, which is 10 meters in length and pulls around 50 watts - however, they only seem to come with a 12v transformer for plugging into the wall (like a laptop power supply). So what can I use instead of this to wire them up to the mains? Do I need an LED driver? All of the LED drivers I've seen are only 12-16 watts max load so I can't see how I'm going to connect a 50 watt strip to a single LED driver if the maximum load is 12-16 watts? What am I missing here? Do I need an LED driver or is there an alternative?

With regard to the downlights, I think I've got this right - I need 5 lights, each 20w, so therefore I need a 100w 12v transformer? See link below for the one I think I need. Please can you confirm if this will be suitable.

Please see images and links below for a better idea of what I'm trying to achieve. Like I say - any help, advice or alternatives would be greatly appreciated...

Many thanks
Steve

LEDs - Click here for link
Downlights - Click here for link
Downlights transformer - Click here for link

 

[Octopus]

This work is notifiable under Part P if you are in England or Wales. Are you registered?

 

[spicler08]

This work is notifiable under Part P if you are in England or Wales. Are you registered?

I just need to know so I can buy the correct bits and bobs - I'm not actually wiring it up myself.

 

[Octopus]

If I were you, I'd get a sparky in to agree a specification and then buy the bits yourself.

 

[spicler08]

If I were you, I'd get a sparky in to agree a specification and then buy the bits yourself.

Thanks, but not very helpful in all honesty. Can someone else help me out please?...

 

[Adam W]

We use a lot of that LED ropelight at work; I'm told it doesn't last long if you try to dim it.

I would check with the manufacturer that that transformer is suitable for a 100W load, and if it is dimmable.

 

[micknew]

No, Murdock has given you the best advice.

 

[telectrix]

i'd get 5 60watt transformers, 1 for each under light ( sounds like overkill, but the 60w are cheap and if 1 goes down, you'll only lose 1 light). the LED strips that come prewired to a plug in PSU can be plugged into a remore adaptor in a socket above the cupboards. also i would switch the under lights independently of the ceiling lights.

 

[spicler08]

We use a lot of that LED ropelight at work; I'm told it doesn't last long if you try to dim it.

Ok - Thanks for the tip. I suppose I could live without the dimmer on the LEDs, just thought it would be a nice touch. Helpful advice none the less.

 

[spicler08]

i'd get 5 60watt transformers, 1 for each under light ( sounds like overkill, but the 60w are cheap and if 1 goes down, you'll only lose 1 light). the LED strips that come prewired to a plug in PSU can be plugged into a remore adaptor in a socket above the cupboards. also i would switch the under lights independently of the ceiling lights.

I'd really prefer just one transformer for the downlights ideally - is that possible with a 12v 100w transformer?

As for the LEDs, they need to be connected to the 3 gang dimmer switch. That's the whole point really. Not just plugged into the wall via a plug socket - that'd look a bit naff in my opinion. Thanks for the advice though.

 

[Octopus]

Is this like your garden lights project when you went down to B&Q and did it yourself?

 

[spicler08]

Is this like your garden lights project when you went down to B&Q and did it yourself?

Not really because if you'd read my previous comment in this thread you'd see that I've already stated that I'm not doing it myself, plus none of the links I posted are for B&Q, plus this is a question about kitchen LEDs and downlights - not garden lights. So no - it's nothing like that.

 

[cdavies33]

This work is Part p notifiable I think due to it being done in a kitchen, You WILL need a registered domestic installer to carry out the work, I'm sure he will answer every question you throw at him..........

 

[spicler08]

This work is Part p notifiable I think due to it being done in a kitchen, You WILL need a registered domestic installer to carry out the work, I'm sure he will answer every question you throw at him..........

Thanks - I'm sure he will. So if he can answer them I'm sure someone else can as well? This is the electricians forum isn't it??...

 

[CrazyScozzese]

Personally, I would fit the LEDs on a switched fused unit. Rather than those blue strips, shell out a bit more and get the RGB strips. Then you can change the mood of your kitchen when you feel like it. Blue is cold and gets boring after a while.

Buy a 12v tranny & controller which should come with a remote. They usually remember the last mode so when you kill it at night it comes back on nect night in same mode. You can set any colour, and have it morph or whatever. The ladies love it. Still a clean install, as the tranny can be fed from a flex outlet where ever you want it hidden, on top with the lights. The FCU can be the outlet or the switch on the wall.

If the LEDS strip is stick on, stick them to an aluminium box section to help dissipate heat, they will last longer. They don't like dimming as said, but the odd one dying is not a problem. If the tranny / controller is good quality and not ebay special then they will also last longer as the supply is better regulated.

You will have gathered by now that this work is notifiable, so if you do it yourself, make sure you follow procedures, do it to the 17th, and contact your local authority before hand to notify them you are doing it. They will tell you exactly what Murderock and the others above have said, not to do it yourself. They will charge you lots, take a while to come out, and you will wish you got a sparky in. It is your choice though, knock yourself out, so to speak. Your wife will complain about how long it has been, you will be at Screwfix loads of times and they will not have the part you need and when you get home it will be one size too big.

Sparks love this stuff, they go home and gnaw twin and earth when peckish.

Oh, buy the best dimmers you can find, and use more than one transformer on your down lights, and make sure the two items are compatible.

Good luck!

 

[spicler08]

Thanks http://www.electriciansforums.net/members/crazyscozzese.htmlCrazyScozzese - some actual answers to my questions! The FCU for the LEDs is a great idea. Can the FCU then be controlled via the 3 gang switch? The dimming part is not that important really. Is this link what you mean regarding the 12v transformer and RGB controller? So does the electrician just lop the plug off and wire it into the FCU? Then the FCU can be turned on/off via the light switch yeah?

When you say "buy the best dimmers you can find", do you mean the actual 3 gang dimmer switch? What do I look for? Won't any old 400w 3 gang dimmer switch do the job? How do they vary in terms of performance?

Just out of curiosity, why do I need more than one transformer for my downlights? If they are 20w each and I have 5 lights, won't a 100w transformer like this do the job?

Thanks for your help on this mate - really appreciate it.

 

[CrazyScozzese]

In order...

Not if a dimmer.
Yes, but that is not the best of quality.
The sparks will know.
Yes, or it is the switch.
It is now 2 gang, and a FCU or switch, and yes. Cheap means you buy often.
You would be best looking for a sparky, it will be quicker and cheaper in the long run. Dimmers are different, inductive, resistive, soft start, leading edge, trailing edge, different minimum VA. The wrong one will flash, wander, fail early, etc.
It depends on the lights, some need to be derated. You don't want them at anywhere near full capacity either.

I hope this isn't a wind up.

 

[spicler08]

Brilliant - thanks again CrazyScozzese. I appreciate the pointers. What do you mean "I hope this isn't a wind up"...?? Why would it be a wind up?

 

[i=p/u]

just take your live neutral and easrth to switch then out to socket outlet near where lights are going to be installed, and whalla plug in.. MAKE SURE HE USES DEEPER BACKBOX. AND NOT JAM IT ALL IN...

be wary of some domestic installer with part p comming to your door as he could of got this confidince for £1000 QUID.. AND NOT THROUGH PROPER TRAINING.. BUT UPTO YOU

 

[spicler08]

just take your live neutral and easrth to switch then out to socket outlet near where lights are going to be installed, and whalla plug in.. MAKE SURE HE USES DEEPER BACKBOX. AND NOT JAM IT ALL IN...

So effectively this is a light switch that controls a plug socket? Is that what you're saying? If so I like it - it's a great alternative to the FCU. Thanks mate.

 

[Octopus]

Not really because if you'd read my previous comment in this thread you'd see that I've already stated that I'm not doing it myself, plus none of the links I posted are for B&Q, plus this is a question about kitchen LEDs and downlights - not garden lights. So no - it's nothing like that.

I was referring to one of your original posts on the forum where you got free information on your garden lights and subsequently posted that you'd been down B & Q and done it yourself.

This is the "Electricians forum" and as such is for people in the industry to share information. You may not have found my "guidance" helpful but I think you fall under the DIYer heading and as such my suggestion is that you consult an electrician was a sound suggestion.

Some of the people here who offer great advice in posts are often complaining about the lack of work for them.

 

[spicler08]

...my suggestion is that you consult an electrician...

Consult an electrician - good idea. If only there was some sort of online electricians forum where I could do that...??

...I think you fall under the DIYer heading...

Hmm, I thought 'DIY' stood for Do It Yourself, and as previously stated in this thread, I'm not doing this myself. Do you not understand how I'm saying that because you don't seem to grasp it.

Some of the people here who offer great advice in posts are often complaining about the lack of work for them.

So the lack of work for them is a direct consequence of people like me asking a few questions about what lights, sockets and switches to buy for my kitchen? Even though I've stated several times that I'll be getting an electrician in to do the work. Maybe the lack of work for these "people" is because they spend too much time sitting at a computer on an electricians forum complaining and being a busybody jobsworth instead of doing something more productive and proactive.

If you don't want to help someone who posts a question, then don't - simple as that. But equally, if you don't have anything helpful to contribute or you don't know the answers to their questions, then don't clog up their post with stupid, mundane comments, like ridiculing someone because they shop in B&Q. Grow up.

There are actually people on here that are willing to give 2 minutes of their time to help someone out and offer a few pointers where they can. Kind, decent, generous people - and these are the people I'm aiming my original question at. Several people who fall under this category have already replied in this thread and provided good helpful advice, and I'm very grateful for their time. Anyone else who'd like to contribute additional constructive advice is more than welcome and their help is very much appreciated. Busybody jobsworths need not apply.

 

[Octopus]

To be honest mate, the reason I'm questioning your "motives" is due to this previous thread:


http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...858-extending-garden-lighting.html#post269287

At the end of the day, anyone giving suggestions or advice here on line is doing so "blind" as only a visit to your home and some investigation would be in able to say what would and what wouldn't be possible.

 

[i=p/u]

be carefull, knock off and lock off and prove it is dead and not you

So effectively this is a light switch that controls a plug socket? Is that what you're saying? If so I like it - it's a great alternative to the FCU. Thanks mate.

 

[vernam616]

"Spicler08" as you have found this is a very "Politically correct" place

and nobody likes answering questions, try to ignore

As for your scenario, you will have to source a dimmable LED driver (which you can buy)

If i were the electrician, id take a permanent supply from the existing celing lights down to the switch, and a three core and earth cable to the top of the kitchen units, three core cable terminated into a junction box on top of the unit, with 2 switch line connections, a common neutral and a common earth

Led driver (L) connection wired into JB with the brown core, underunit lights wired into JB with black core(sleeved with brown), neutrals connected together


Quite a easy job to complete, maybe some patching required depending on whether the floor above could be lifted and whether or not the switch wall is stud/hollow

Had it been me, id upgrade the backbox in the wall for a deeper one or chase in a 2g one

 

[spicler08]

As for your scenario, you will have to source a dimmable LED driver (which you can buy)

If i were the electrician, id take a permanent supply from the existing celing lights down to the switch, and a three core cable to the top of the kitchen units, three core cable terminated into a junction box on top of the unit, with 2 switch line connections, a common neutral and a common earth

Led driver (L) connection wired into JB with the brown core, underunit lights wired into JB with black core(sleeved with brown), neutrals connected together


Quite a easy job to complete, maybe some patching required depending on whether the floor above could be lifted and whether or not the switch wall is stud/hollow

Had it been me, id upgrade the backbox in the wall for a deeper one or chase in a 2g one

Now that's what I call a definitively clear, concise and extremely helpful answer. Top man - just what I was looking for.

It just goes to show that there are some really decent people on here that will give up their spare time to help someone out where they can. Thanks mate - I appreciate it. Thanks to everyone else as well who chipped in with some words of advice here and there. It's made the job a lot easier now that I can get my head round the nuts and bolts of it.