Kitchen Questions

[BestGear]

Hi Guys - excuse the long first post.

A neighbour has just had a kitchen installed with the inevitable electrical work being done by a company.

Can I ask a few questions regarding regs? The house is in Scotland, so no mandatory Part P as I understand it.

Cables - I thought that all T&E should be supported every 250mm horizontal runs and 400mm for verticals - the spark has not clipped any cables I can see - including the heavy cooker cable that runs under the floor back to the consumer unit at any point in its run, and also on a couple of other 2.5mm t&e runs from existing dishwasher outlet locations to the new one - same for a few runs of 1.5mm for the lighting. Am I correct in thinking that there should be no exceptions to the 250/400 rule?

Location of 13A sockets - the spark has placed a single non switched socket right next to the mains stop cock - probably 100mm away from it at best - I had read of a 300mm guideline for any socket to be "away" on the horizontal plane from any sink or tap - is what has been done appropriate?


Under cabinet lighting - the spark has taken an existing under cabinet lighting circuit down to the floor level in 1.0mm t&e and then terminated it in a single non switched 13a socket. I thought that this was not permitted as all 13A sockets should be fed by at least 2.5mm t&e or have a fuse/breaker of an appropriate size inline where the cross section changes?

Next, there was earth bonding under and onto the existing sink. The spark has left the main earth loose around the mains water feed - just after the stop cock (where it should be I believe, think regs are within 600mm?). Issue here is its loose - and the spark thinks its not needed at all. My understanding is that as its the mains feed into the building, it should be a good earth (connected tightly) and I agree that sink and tap pipework bonding is no longer needed.

The spark has buried several junction boxes (screw terminal not crimp) and power supplies (little switched mode ones) that supply under the wall cupboard lights actually into the wall (plasterboard) and they are just pushed in there not screwed or fixed to anything. Is this permitted?

Lastly - should I expect a "Select" certificate covering all the work that the spark has touched? If not, what should I expect to see on the cert? I was told a cert would be issued.

Thanks in advance for all your help and advice.


David

 

[Octopus]

Your post doesn't make sense. You refer to a neighbour having work done, then later what "i should expect"!!

 

[BestGear]

Ok,what should my neighbour expect?

I was only commenting on what I saw when I was in "having a look at his new kitchen"... and running some cat6 under his floor for him.

I was looking for a professional opinion as to what was acceptable or within code.


David

 

[Octopus]

The regs are different in Scotland but at the very least an EIC or a couple of MWC's

 

[Octopus]

What are you using as your reference material?

 

[BestGear]

What are you using as your reference material?

What I understood to be the regs or commonly accepted best practice.


David

 

[Sintra]

So have you got a copy of bs7671?

 

[Octopus]

Me thinks the OP knows more than he is letting on.

 

[BestGear]

So have you got a copy of bs7671?

I dont have a paper copy, but if I cant get a straight answer here I am sure I will find it online if that's what I need to do.

There is apparently a very big difference in this trade between what is code and what practitioners frequently do... it seems to be that there are many that profess to know it all but few follow it thoroughly when it comes to walking the walk....

I am asking for advice as to what is applicable in code and what outside of code is normal accepted safe practice.

How hard can you guys make this?



David

 

[Octopus]

Well.... If ad I say if you neighbour has a grievance with the spark that did the work shouldn'y they be discussing this with the spark

Did "they" get any certification?

 

[BestGear]

Me thinks the OP knows more than he is letting on.

AGH!!!!


I am not winding you guys up..... its the other way around!!

I an not a spark (else I would not ask...) and I have a electronics background but as I say not a spark. I am not even in the electronic trade these days either, nor have I been employed within it now for probably 20 years.

I do however understand these thing when explained, but obviously not being in the trade ask for advice and understanding of what is, these days, accepted as safe and within code.

Do I have to join a certain lodge to get straight answers around here?

David

 

[Octopus]

Now you've done more than 6 posts you can add some photo's

You are correct in the fact that there are diligent, thorough sparks and those that arrive on horse back, but that's the same for any trade.

Still not sure why you are raising this??

 

[BestGear]

Well.... If ad I say if you neighbour has a grievance with the spark that did the work shouldn'y they be discussing this with the spark

Did "they" get any certification?

They have not been given any cert, even though they were charged for it by the installing company.

I ask as I genuinely feel that code has been broken on a few things, and if not code, the spark has deviated from what would be considered as normal safe practice.

As in any confrontational situation, my neighbour wants to know where he stands with respect to the items I narrated above, before taking any "grievance" against the spark installing it.

My neighbour knows nothing about wiring of any sort, and would probably struggle to wire a plugtop.


As an aside, I did have the same spark do a periodic inspection in a flat I had rented out, and he insisted it had broken rings... when infact it had radial wiring, so you can see why I have a distrust of the guy. The flat was largely wired with pyro and it was he first time he had seen it!


David

 

[Sintra]

I dont have a paper copy, but if I cant get a straight answer here I am sure I will find it online if that's what I need to do.

There is apparently a very big difference in this trade between what is code and whatpractitioners frequently do... it seems to be that there are many that profess to know it all but few follow it thoroughly when it comes to walking the walk....

I am asking for advice as to what is applicable in code and what outside of code is normal accepted safe practice.

How hard can you guys make this?



David

All installations should comply to a minimum standard of bs7671.

Are you part of this trade?

I would say that electricians that know the regs will install to the regs we are not all cowboys.

 

[BestGear]

Still not sure why you are raising this??

I just wanted a general opinion on each point within the original post.

A) do they meet code

b) are they generally accepted as safe practice.

Simples....

 

[Octopus]

Hi Guys - excuse the long first post.

A neighbour has just had a kitchen installed with the inevitable electrical work being done by a company.

Can I ask a few questions regarding regs? The house is in Scotland, so no mandatory Part P as I understand it. Correct

Cables - I thought that all T&E should be supported every 250mm horizontal runs and 400mm for verticals - the spark has not clipped any cables I can see - including the heavy cooker cable that runs under the floor back to the consumer unit at any point in its run, and also on a couple of other 2.5mm t&e runs from existing dishwasher outlet locations to the new one - same for a few runs of 1.5mm for the lighting. Am I correct in thinking that there should be no exceptions to the 250/400 rule? Sounds a bit rough - a couple of photo's would be helpful

Location of 13A sockets - the spark has placed a single non switched socket right next to the mains stop cock - probably 100mm away from it at best - I had read of a 300mm guideline for any socket to be "away" on the horizontal plane from any sink or tap - is what has been done appropriate? There is NO stated minimum distance (which is daft). The Electricians guide to the building regs mentions 300mm but this isn't in BS7671


Under cabinet lighting - the spark has taken an existing under cabinet lighting circuit down to the floor level in 1.0mm t&e and then terminated it in a single non switched 13a socket. I thought that this was not permitted as all 13A sockets should be fed by at least 2.5mm t&e or have a fuse/breaker of an appropriate size inline where the cross section changes? Has he had to use a 13A socket to incorporate a plug type PSU/transformer? Sometimes this is the only way.

Next, there was earth bonding under and onto the existing sink. The spark has left the main earth loose around the mains water feed - just after the stop cock (where it should be I believe, think regs are within 600mm?). Issue here is its loose - and the spark thinks its not needed at all. My understanding is that as its the mains feed into the building, it should be a good earth (connected tightly) and I agree that sink and tap pipework bonding is no longer needed. Can you not tightend it up for your neighbour? Again a bit ruff and rushed.

The spark has buried several junction boxes (screw terminal not crimp) and power supplies (little switched mode ones) that supply under the wall cupboard lights actually into the wall (plasterboard) and they are just pushed in there not screwed or fixed to anything. Is this permitted? Not allowed but many do this which again is very rough.

Lastly - should I expect a "Select" certificate covering all the work that the spark has touched? If not, what should I expect to see on the cert? I was told a cert would be issued. I would recommend your neighbour withhold payment until the paperwork is forth coming.

Thanks in advance for all your help and advice.


David

COmments in bold above

 

[BestGear]

Are you part of this trade?

I would say that electricians that know the regs will install to the regs we are not all cowboys.

No, as said a few posts ago, I am not in "this trade" nor have I ever been, but I do cross paths with sparks from time to time, but are not responsible for the work or standards that they adhere to.

- - - Updated - - -

COmments in bold above

THANK YOU!!!!!

 

[Octopus]

No, as said a few posts ago, I am not in "this trade" nor have I ever been, but I do cross paths with sparks from time to time, but are not responsible for the work or standards that they adhere to.

- - - Updated - - -



THANK YOU!!!!!

I get the distinct impression that if I were playing cards against you, you would want mine laid out on the table, face up, whilst yours would be firmly locked in a safe.

 

[BestGear]

Finding it a bit tricky to do a multi quote reply here..

Cable runs - he has not used any clips to secure anything I have seen - dishwasher, lights, even the big cooker cable (which I assume will be 6mm or perhaps heavier (?) which runs down the back of the unit and under the floor and emerges at the CU where there is one solitary clip as it crosses the skirting board. Some cables are "jammed" between the plasterboard and floor, some just left to sit as they lie.



Socket beside mains - thanks - I did not think there were rules there other than the 300mm I had read about. Seems senseless where he fitted it (surface box on a plasterboard wall) when it could have been behind the actual dishwasher and distanced from all the usual under sink pipes and taps.

Lighting - no - there is a cable with twin going into barrier strip and off to the lights, hence I question why he presented it on a 13A socket. Is there not a rule that says you cant present a 13A socket as it could be reasonably expected that something that needed 13A could be plugged in there... and the 1.0mm would be on the limit with the original long runs within insulated walls. I guess it does not matter in reality as long as the mcb protecting it was 6A or similar.

Water mains earth - is it code that it needs to be within 600mm of stopcock or did that go the way of earth bonding everything in the kitchen? I will tighten it, but I guess the question is that of is it needed these days?

Junction boxes etc in walls - are they allowed if crimped or just not at all? I certainly would not want any PSU to be behind my kitchen tiles as we all know it wont last for ever, especially in an insulated cavity!

Cert - my thoughts exactly - they wont pay at this point. Should the cert cover every circuit that the spark has modified or installed?

Thanks guys... I was beginning to give up hope:dizzy2:


David

 

[BestGear]

I get the distinct impression that if I were playing cards against you, you would want mine laid out on the table, face up, whilst yours would be firmly locked in a safe.

Thats amusing!

Nah, I 'aint like that, honestly... It really does p*ss me off when folks pay (or are about to pay) good money for a job and you get some guy do shoddy work - as said in the replied above "rough"...

In my original post I did try to describe the situation and my understanding of what was right and wrong...rather than post just questions... I tried to offer what i *thought* was best practice or the expected approach.

Having said all that... if you ever do want a game of cards... I'm in... hehe

 

[Octopus]

Finding it a bit tricky to do a multi quote reply here..

Cable runs - he has not used any clips to secure anything I have seen - dishwasher, lights, even the big cooker cable (which I assume will be 6mm or perhaps heavier (?) which runs down the back of the unit and under the floor and emerges at the CU where there is one solitary clip as it crosses the skirting board. Some cables are "jammed" between the plasterboard and floor, some just left to sit as they lie.



Socket beside mains - thanks - I did not think there were rules there other than the 300mm I had read about. Seems senseless where he fitted it (surface box on a plasterboard wall) when it could have been behind the actual dishwasher and distanced from all the usual under sink pipes and taps. Absolutely NOT, a socket directly behind a washing machine is not accessible for isolation unless there is an isolation switch above the worktop

Lighting - no - there is a cable with twin going into barrier strip and off to the lights, hence I question why he presented it on a 13A socket. Is there not a rule that says you cant present a 13A socket as it could be reasonably expected that something that needed 13A could be plugged in there... and the 1.0mm would be on the limit with the original long runs within insulated walls. I guess it does not matter in reality as long as the mcb protecting it was 6A or similar. You have NOT answered my point about the 13A socket being required for a PSU

Water mains earth - is it code that it needs to be within 600mm of stopcock or did that go the way of earth bonding everything in the kitchen? I will tighten it, but I guess the question is that of is it needed these days? 600mm "where practical"

Junction boxes etc in walls - are they allowed if crimped or just not at all? I certainly would not want any PSU to be behind my kitchen tiles as we all know it wont last for ever, especially in an insulated cavity! No junction boxes are crimped to my knowledge, So has he crimped and then contained the crimps in an enclosure for added protection?

Cert - my thoughts exactly - they wont pay at this point. Should the cert cover every circuit that the spark has modified or installed? Definitely. MWC for each modified and an EIC for each new one.

Thanks guys... I was beginning to give up hope:dizzy2:


David

So are you going to post some photo's or simply use internet based feedback to have a go at a spark?