leakage

[i=p/u]

got a call on Saturday to say the newish washing machine is blowing the trip. when i had nosey around swapping leads and whatever i tried still tripping when starts a cycle.

its a tt installation with a ze of 14 ohms , insulation resistance of machine was as follows
l-e 1.3 M/ohms
n-e 12 M/ohms

earth continuity from plug to metal part of machine was 1.6 ohms

what i thought was an rcd is actual a voltage measuring device, apparently were installed before rcd came about , had no rating on it but has a yellow test button.

what else can i try or if i ring an appliance engineer what will he tell me. or what will he do.

thanks if your full of knowhow. im all ear or eyes

 

[telectrix]

start by replacing that VOELCB with a RCD. then take it from there.

 

[StuSpiers]

Voltage trips have been unfit for continued service for some time.

It actually mentions them in document P (page 36).

 

[AndyL]

Agree with Tel, also 1.6 ohms is too high for your CPC continuity, should be a maximum of 0.1 ohm

 

[i=p/u]

only get as far as page 3 all time..

.. need to clamp meter to measure earth leakage then can change device accordingly ..with a ze of 14 ohm i can get away 100mA - 500mA

would these devices be more sensitive than rcds?? id say no. but can somone explain how they work

 

[Engineer54]

As they are voltage operated why would you clamp test the device??

 

[i=p/u]

just the earth before i INSTALL A 100ma RCD JUST IN CASE THERE 120Ma FLOWING...

 

[telectrix]

you should be installing a 30mA RCD anyway. but, yes, by all means check installation leakage or global IR test before fitting RCD or you might end up spending an extra day sorting out problems which you haven't allowed for in your quote.

 

[StuSpiers]

only get as far as page 3 all time..

.. need to clamp meter to measure earth leakage then can change device accordingly ..with a ze of 14 ohm i can get away 100mA - 500mA

would these devices be more sensitive than rcds?? id say no. but can somone explain how they work

Well if there is a Voltage trip chances the fuseboard isn't 17th compliant?
If I were you I would be giving the customer two choices - direct replacement with 30ma rcd (not recommended)
Fuse board upgrade.
then fix any problems like washing machines.

Voltage trips operate when the touch voltage rises above 50V (unless I'm mistaken)
but are unreliable due to parallel paths making them inoperative.

 

[Engineer54]

just the earth before i INSTALL A 100ma RCD JUST IN CASE THERE 120Ma FLOWING...

I'd be more inclined to find out exactly WHY there was 120mA flowing in a domestic installation!!....lol!!!

 

[i=p/u]

Yes no rcds all old fuses and a farm house

so does that mean the washing machine is climbing to above 50v then the trip is kicking in?? As only happens when washing machine starts the cycle

 

[StuSpiers]

could be,

but the unreliability of voltage trips make it anyone's guess.

A voltage trip would be a C2 on an EICR (potentially dangerous)

 

[i=p/u]

I havent measured the earth leakage yet.

If i know how these voltage devices operate then i can start from the start of working out what is going on.. Dont forget im a newbie so never seen one of the devices before or worked with them

 

[telectrix]

irrelevant how or if they work-- it wants ripping out . end of. i wouldn't expect my motor mechanic to know how steam engines worked ( that's one for engineer54, he'll know. LOL.)

 

[StuSpiers]

lol.

Yhea the voltage trip is the MAIN problem here - the washing machine is secondary.

 

[i=p/u]

why 30mA telectrix? its an existing tt installation and they just want it fixed not all replaced my friend. 100mA

 

[Engineer54]

irrelevant how or if they work-- it wants ripping out . end of. i wouldn't expect my motor mechanic to know how steam engines worked ( that's one for engineer54, he'll know. LOL.)

Err, even i would have to pass on that one!! lol!!

 

[telectrix]

all circuits on a TT installation should be protected by a 30mA RCD.

 

[i=p/u]

i could get away with 2500mA rcd if i could get 1.. @ 14 ohms ze

 

[i=p/u]

yes if new install, but id say this is a good few years old..

 

[StuSpiers]

your going to have to sign it off though.

I would say a full eic is needed (debatable though)

and your work should be too 17th

 

[i=p/u]

all circuits on a TT installation should be protected by a 30mA RCD.

yes if new install, but id say this is a good few years old..


​

 

[Richard Burns]

got a call on Saturday to say the newish washing machine is blowing the trip. when i had nosey around swapping leads and whatever i tried still tripping when starts a cycle.

its a tt installation with a ze of 14 ohms , insulation resistance of machine was as follows
l-e 1.3 M/ohms
n-e 12 M/ohms

earth continuity from plug to metal part of machine was 1.6 ohms

what i thought was an rcd is actual a voltage measuring device, apparently were installed before rcd came about , had no rating on it but has a yellow test button.

what else can i try or if i ring an appliance engineer what will he tell me. or what will he do.

thanks if your full of knowhow. im all ear or eyes

If you have a new (ish) washing machine that is tripping a VOELCB then I would start by saying the machine is faulty and should be returned to the manufacturer if it is under warranty.
You would certainly recommend to the customer the replacement of the VOELCB with a suitable system but they do not have to take your advice.
If you are just operating as a washing machine repair man then the installation is not your responsibility, but is something that should be highlighted with the customer.

You could try testing continuity to earth (not IR) for the washing machine and then operating the cycle start switches and see what turns up.
If it is not totally digital then you may immediately get a fault.
The first thing a washing machine does is power up the level sensor and start adding water, so this could be your first port of call: water supply solenoid or damaged water level sensor. After that call an appliance engineer!

 

[AndyL]

all circuits on a TT installation should be protected by a 30mA RCD.

Only need 30mA on circuits for additional protection, i.e buried in walls less than 50mm deep, rooms with bath/shower and all circuits with sockets
All other circuits on a TT require maximum 100mA RCD protection

 

[Engineer54]

Only need 30mA on circuits for additional protection, i.e buried in walls less than 50mm deep, rooms with bath/shower and all circuits with sockets
All other circuits on a TT require maximum 100mA RCD protection

As there is usually no chance of the normal ADS being effective on a TT system, RCD is unfortunately the prime protection. 100Ma is the older max rating, so as Tel stated, All circuits on this TT installation need 30mA RCD protection...

Having 30mA RCD protection on the circuits in the form of dual RCD or RCBO's .....Then a 100mA S type up front RCD would be classed as ''Additional Protection''!!...lol!!

 

[Guest111]

Put it this way it all depends on the reputation you want to get,fit a 30mA rcd and its right rit a 100mA rcd and someone may come along in the future and say "which cowboy fitted this? should have been 30mA " the customer will probably take their word and you look a pratt as well as getting a bad name.My course of action would be advise cust to get engineer to deal with machine as its clearly faulty and also advise cust on getting rcd soted.That way you come out looking like a decent sparks.

 

[i=p/u]

well guys depending on the ra value will determin what rating the upfront rcd can be, 30mA to 500mA, this is cause disconnection times cant be met. correct me if im wrong. so its all about the Ra.

as for exisiting installation not rcd protected , i believe i am not required to update circuits to be covered with 30mA rcd.

the easiest way todo this would put 30mA rcd on the tails but the question then is , will it hold the whole farm house

- - - Updated - - -

but thanks for your inputssssss

 

[Tonkatoy27]

Try a plug in RCD or temp board with an RCD. If the RCD operates before the VOELCB then there is definatly a fault on the machine.
It's hard to IR test new appliances to diagnose a fault as they are all electronically controlled so the faulty part probably won't be switched in if tested dead. Does the brown box trip immediatly the machine is turned on or after a few mins? If straight away it is unlikely to be the usual culprits. (element, motor, pump etc)
If the VOELCB blows before the RCD you are back to square one, sorry.
The earth continuity may well be higher than 0.1 ohms in reality, it depends on the length of the flex and the part of the machine the reading was taken from.
Definatly recommend upgrade to 17th edition board, upfront 100mA or 30mA RCD may give you a world of trouble. Good luck in getting the customer to go for it though. (cor blimey, what a rip off mechant, I only asked him to fix the washing machine and he want me to spend £300 on a new fuse box) I blame too many cowboy builder programs.........

 

[i=p/u]

cheers tonkatoy , yh you got it one, i only wanted the washing machine fixed.

and yeah the voltage device trips as soon as you start a programme so the water level device as someone said this is the first part that operates.... maybe maybe maybe dunno.