Sockets keep tripping

[clueless456]

Safety shutters will deter all but the most determined of young curious minds and their potential issues far outweigh any benefits. The link provided in post #28 covers the main reasons why they are frowned upon.

All things being even you should not receive a shock when using them, but where you found moisture behind one it may increase the risk of shock by providing a moist path between conductors. The main reaon for their use is the belief they'll keep young children safe from electric shock, but I'd contend the potential risks they create are far greater than the risk of shock from an undamaged, safety shuttered socket.

My previous advice has been provided out of an abundance of caution, but I have concerns about your prior wet wipe experience and the presence of moisture in another socket. I'd prefer you had to spend a few hard earned pounds getting to the bottom of this, and having the issue properly resolved, while ensuring all protective devices operate as intended. What I don't want to do is read a local newspaper link about someone electrocuted through a combination of unusual fault and a failed RCD.

I understand the frustration of not having reliably working outlets, but my concerns extend beyond resolving the obvious issue to ensuring any potential failure in the future is a safe failure.

Thank you.

Could you just confirm, when an electrical item such as a toaster or fridge is plugged in, by inserting the plug, that opens up the safety shutters to enable the device to work?

But with nothing at all plugged into a socket, there are safety shutters? The socket that gave me the shock, although I accidently switched the switch on as I wiped it, there was nothing plugged into it at all, so should the safety shutters have prevented any chance of a shock anyway?

 

[nicebutdim]

Thank you.

Could you just confirm, when an electrical item such as a toaster or fridge is plugged in, by inserting the plug, that opens up the safety shutters to enable the device to work?

But with nothing at all plugged into a socket, there are safety shutters? The socket that gave me the shock, although I accidently switched the switch on as I wiped it, there was nothing plugged into it at all, so should the safety shutters have prevented any chance of a shock anyway?

The earth pin of your plug opens the safety shutters. When nothing is plugged into a socket it is not possible to push past the line and neutral shutters, although I wouldn't advise testing this on a live outlet will break under sufficient pressure.

The logic behind socket covers is sound, but the reality is that some have been proven to cause damage to safety shutters and other components within sockets and kids can easily remove them and even use them to defeat safety shutters. Nothing is foolproof, but safety shutters have proven themselves to be very effective over many decades.

Safety shutters are intended to stop items being poked into live terminals, but they (nor any other safety device) won't prevent the sort of situation you experienced. Electricity will not leak from terminals if safety shutters are open, but water does leak and moisture tracking between terminals could provide a current path from which you may receive a shock.

There are all sorts of possibilities why you received a shock, but without being on site it is impossible to provide empirical answers to the questions raised about your experiences and sufficient information has been provided to suggest thorough investigation is required. Hopefully this turns out to be a straighforward issue and one which can be easily resolved.

 

[clueless456]

The earth pin of your plug opens the safety shutters. When nothing is plugged into a socket it is not possible to push past the line and neutral shutters, although I wouldn't advise testing this on a live outlet will break under sufficient pressure.

The logic behind socket covers is sound, but the reality is that some have been proven to cause damage to safety shutters and other components within sockets and kids can easily remove them and even use them to defeat safety shutters. Nothing is foolproof, but safety shutters have proven themselves to be very effective over many decades.

Safety shutters are intended to stop items being poked into live terminals, but they (nor any other safety device) won't prevent the sort of situation you experienced. Electricity will not leak from terminals if safety shutters are open, but water does leak and moisture tracking between terminals could provide a current path from which you may receive a shock.

There are all sorts of possibilities why you received a shock, but without being on site it is impossible to provide empirical answers to the questions raised about your experiences and sufficient information has been provided to suggest thorough investigation is required. Hopefully this turns out to be a straighforward issue and one which can be easily resolved.

Thank you.

I can only assume that if I hadn't accidentally switched the switch on as I touched the socket, then I wouldn't have received a shock, but wont be going anywhere near any socket ever again with a wet wipe (even a fairly dry one) without switching the circuit breakers off first.

The strange thing was that (and this is going to sound really crazy, but i'm honestly not) before I had even touched the socket (I was probably a few feet away from socket) I suddenly had a very strange sharp pain in the tip of my thumb underneath the nail, that felt like a bee sting, or a needle going into my thumb. Then a few seconds later I touched the socket and the shock went straight through my thumb in the exact same place.

Almost like some kind of premonition. Very strange - I think the "premonition" shocked me more than the electric shock itself.

Thank you for all of the replies and help. It's so nice to have the fridge working again.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Just a thought, have you closely inspected the socket you got the shock off for any cracking of the surface, moisture from the wet wipe could track through a crack in the surface and give you the shock you experienced, but I would ask, how bad was the shock? was it just a tingle or a shock that made you step backwards and have to sit down?

 

[clueless456]

Thank you.

I can only assume that if I hadn't accidentally switched the switch on as I touched the socket, then I wouldn't have received a shock, but wont be going anywhere near any socket ever again with a wet wipe (even a fairly dry one) without switching the circuit breakers off first.

The strange thing was that (and this is going to sound really crazy, but i'm honestly not) before I had even touched the socket (I was probably a few feet away from socket) I suddenly had a very strange sharp pain in the tip of my thumb underneath the nail, that felt like a bee sting, or a needle going into my thumb. Then a few seconds later I touched the socket and the shock went straight through my thumb in the exact same place.

Almost like some kind of premonition. Very strange - I think the "premonition" shocked me more than the electric shock itself.

Thank you for all of the replies and help. It's so nice to have the fridge working again.

 

[clueless456]

Just a thought, have you closely inspected the socket you got the shock off for any cracking of the surface, moisture from the wet wipe could track through a crack in the surface and give you the shock you experienced, but I would ask, how bad was the shock? was it just a tingle or a shock that made you step backwards and have to sit down?

There is nothing amiss that I can see on that socket, but have noticed cracks in a couple of other sockets around the house.

The wet wipe really wasn't very wet. The shock was quite bad - Not just a tingle, it was quite painful and I am still paranoid about touching, switching on or plugging anything into any socket ever since the shock. I have read stories of much worse shocks though so was lucky I suppose.

 

[DPG]

Thank you.

I can only assume that if I hadn't accidentally switched the switch on as I touched the socket, then I wouldn't have received a shock, but wont be going anywhere near any socket ever again with a wet wipe (even a fairly dry one) without switching the circuit breakers off first.

The strange thing was that (and this is going to sound really crazy, but i'm honestly not) before I had even touched the socket (I was probably a few feet away from socket) I suddenly had a very strange sharp pain in the tip of my thumb underneath the nail, that felt like a bee sting, or a needle going into my thumb. Then a few seconds later I touched the socket and the shock went straight through my thumb in the exact same place.

Almost like some kind of premonition. Very strange - I think the "premonition" shocked me more than the electric shock itself.

Thank you for all of the replies and help. It's so nice to have the fridge working again.

To be honest it sounds more like you had something sharp under your fingernail. That's too much of a coincidence.

Having said that you should still get the socket checked out.

 

[clueless456]

To be honest it sounds more like you had something sharp under your fingernail. That's too much of a coincidence.

Having said that you should still get the socket checked out.

No there was definitely nothing under fingernail or sticking in thumb. It was a very strange, sudden and sharp pain in an unusual place... Was definitely a premonition!... I will take more notice the next time something like that happens and stop whatever I am about to do.

 

[pirate]

Replace that socket with a new one. Sockets are not always perfect. I had one recently where the socket tester was plugged in simply to identify which breaker isolated it, but the tester showed a fault as missing earth. The MFT showed the same result.
Further inspection showed that the earth wa simply a bare cpc feeding the socket which had been "tucked in" to the g/y sleeving on another cpc...
That was rectified by properly sleeving the cpc and connecting it properly. Same result, showing lack of earth at the socket.
Took socket off, put on brand new one, and all was good. Testing the old socket for continuity afterwards and no continuity on earth, yet no obvious break. Let's just say that between the earth terminal on the socket and the earth contact for the earth pin, there was no connection. Thus, we had two areas of concern on that old socket. First, the cpc was just slid haphazardly into an adjacent sleeving, and secondly, the socket itself was faulty so no matter how good the earth connection was, it wasn't continuous through the socket itself. I know who installed the socket, have seen numerous other of his attempts at such stuff, and so I'm not surprised really. This socket was one he installed in the common entrance to a block of flats so he could plug in a brass table lamp to illuminate the entrance. The missing earth connection was bad enough, but the brass lamp had its cpc cut off, so any fault was available for members of the public, residents and cleaners to touch. Needless to say, being provided with a "new" socket in the entrance hall was a bonus for the cleaners as they could use it for their vacuum cleaners etc. by unplugging the lamp, and plugging it in again after they had finished cleaning. I guess the cut-off cpc didn't really matter because there was no cpc to the socket anyway.
David Savery did a video recently where the plastic on a plug was conductive...
I ramble...point is, replace any accessory however much it may visually appear to be ok, if there is even a slight concern over it, or at the very least test it in isolation from whatever circuit it serves.

 

[nicebutdim]

Replace that socket with a new one. Sockets are not always perfect. I had one recently where the socket tester was plugged in simply to identify which breaker isolated it, but the tester showed a fault as missing earth. The MFT showed the same result.

Also the other socket where moisture was found behind a safety cover.

Something is amiss here and the information provided warrants proper investigation.

 

[nicebutdim]

The wet wipe really wasn't very wet. The shock was quite bad - Not just a tingle, it was quite painful and I am still paranoid about touching, switching on or plugging anything into any socket ever since the shock. I have read stories of much worse shocks though so was lucky I suppose.

You should be paranoid and in the grand scheme of things that shock was likely to have been relatively minor if a functioning RCD protects the circuit. Wet fingers will have increased the conductivity of your skin, but an RCD should operate in less time than the brain processes pain. That it didn't operate suggests current was lower than the threshold at which an RCD should trip.

Get an electrician in to replace that socket (along with any others that are cracked or damaged), investigate moisture at the other, test the respective circuits and ensure that protective devices are functioning correctly. No normal person wants to receive an electric shock and my aim is to restore peace between you and the electrical installation in your home.

 

[timhoward]

This forum is great for many purposes but honestly I feel threads like this one are flawed - no amount of typing changes the fact that the first action of anyone getting any kind of unexplained shock in their home should be getting a professional there as soon as possible to test the installation and give advice.
I have no idea what it is about the perception of electricity that makes people think it's fine to 'see how things go' and turn to the internet to start 5 pages of debate about how they might have nearly died and why the thing that probably saved their life won't reset.
If it was a gas leak I'm sure different actions would take place with considerable urgency.
As several other people that I hugely respect have said - PLEASE get an electrician in.

 

[Mike Johnson]

@clueless456 Do you own this house or is it rented? If rented then the Landlord should be informed and an electrician brought in, but in any case when you moved in did you get an electrical report of any kind?

I think the conclusion to all of this is going to be water/damp, either in the outside light or in any one of the sockets, or the fact that the dishwasher blew its fuse some time ago, all IMO indicative of the breaking down of heating elements insulation and damp, fridge, freezer, tumble dryer, washing machine etc.

The real conclusion is get an Electrician in to sort it.

 

[mainline]

MCB's trip on overload, RCD's trip on short circuits.

RCDs trip on an imbalance, not short circuits.

 

[DPG]

RCDs trip on an imbalance, not short circuits.

And MCBs also trip on short circuits for that matter.

 

[mainline]

And MCBs also trip on short circuits for that matter.

I suppose there is a chance that the rcd may go open circuit eventually

 

[timhoward]

Many things will go open circuit in the case of a dead short including cables

Having told someone there's a reason IR tests are at the end more than once, I recently decided to let them find out that Wagos don't go open circuit on a dead short. He'd left live and CPC wago'd together at the last socket. What amused me further is that he immediately turned to IR testing to find the 'fault' and then continuity testing when it was low resistance, so I could say "does that number look at all familiar?"

 

[mainline]

Having told someone there's a reason IR tests are at the end more than once, I recently decided to let them find out that Wagos don't go open circuit on a dead short. He'd left live and CPC wago'd together at the last socket. What amused me further is that he immediately turned to IR testing to find the 'fault' and then continuity testing when it was low resistance, so I could say "does that number look at all familiar?"

Live and cpc shorted would trip the rcd/rcbo

 

[timhoward]

Live and cpc shorted would trip the rcd/rcbo

You'd think, though this was Proteus so all bets are off ;-)
In this case the B20 MCB actually went first! And yes the RCD was working, 14.6ms @ x5, 20.1ms @ x1, tested many times afterwards.

 

[clueless456]

Thank you for all of the replies and advice - It has been very helpful and yes I am going to get an electrician in to investigate and change any required sockets.

Re the wet wipe incident when I was shocked, it wasn't until yesterday reading your replies that I ever considered it may be a problem or fault with the actual socket itself. I just blamed myself as being my fault, as it was me who had a (slightly damp) wet wipe in my hand, and it was me who touched the socket and accidentally switched the switch on as I touched the socket.

Although saying that, the "premonition" I had before even touching the socket, when I was standing a few feet away is strange. And the socket switch was off at that point.... It was like some kind of invisible electrical charge attached to my thumb (and the wet wipe) when I was a few feet away from the socket. I can't actually remember if that incident tripped the electrics or not.

I do not use that socket for anything and it now has plastic plug protectors plugged in. If it had the plastic plug protectors in previously, would that have prevented me getting the shock?

As for the fitted dishwasher fuse blowing, that happened more recently. Again I think that was my fault as I think it blew due to water being splashed on the fuse socket on the wall when I was unloading glasses out of the dishwasher. I dried the fuse switch and replaced with another fuse, but obviously didn't dry the fuse switch properly, as when I switched it back on there was a loud bang and black smoke coming out of the fuse socket.

The 13A fuse has now been removed and the dishwasher has not been used since then, until I can get an electrician to fix the socket.

As for the moisture behind the plastic plug protector, which I assume was the problem of the electrics tripping, as since drying that the problem seems to have resolved - I can only assume the moisture came from me cleaning the skirting boards, and maybe I wiped over the plastic plug protector too, and moisture somehow tracked behind the plastic protector.

The plastic plug protectors have a normal length top prong and the 2 lower prongs are shorter. I am still confused, could you confirm if a plastic plug protector is plugged in, and the socket switch is off, is that socket live at all with any electricity? Or would it only become "live" with any charge running through it if the socket switch was switched on?

I understand why some people do not like the plastic plug protectors as they can be turned upside down by toddlers etc, but I don't have a toddler who could do that, so just trying to understand if they are safer to use to prevent any shock from water contact?.... When I had the electric shock before having the plug protectors, that was probably the equivalent of a toddler touching a socket with a wet finger, but wondering if the plastic plug protector would have prevented the shock I received?