Neutrals at switches

[Guest 004]

Went to a job today, twin and earth, and it had been wired 2 plate, which of course meant that all the switches had the neutral taken to them.

WTF, if I had done that in my apprenticeship I would have been kicked off site.

Is this how things are done now, god I hope not.

 

[londonlec]

Whats wrong with it then?

 

[Adam W]

It's a more convenient way of wiring downlighters, wall lights, or any other fitting without a 3 plate rose.
That said I'm not too keen on doing that in houses if I can help it.

 

[Engineer54]

Why not ask yourself ''what's right with it'' ??? Unless there is an actual need for a neutral at the switch point, then there shouldn't be any neutral conductors there, really very simples!! lol!!!

 

[malcolmsanford]

It;s been done like this for years..................agreed I was taught loop in/out at the ceiling and that is considered the norm, but would have no problems with an installtion done with neutrals in a switch ...........

Is there a reason you don't like it?

 

[Mr Mike]

Some new switches available where the neutrals can be made off at the switch. Not sure what make they are

 

[RWJ]

Some new switches available where the neutrals can be made off at the switch. Not sure what make they are

Hager I think

 

[Engineer54]

It;s been done like this for years..................agreed I was taught loop in/out at the ceiling and that is considered the norm, but would have no problems with an installtion done with neutrals in a switch ...........

Is there a reason you don't like it?

If there's no need for a neutral at the switch, then No i don't like it. A lot of this looping neutrals at the switch is more by laziness than for any real need. If you were wiring an outside light , fine bring a neutral to the switch. For down lighters, what's wrong with keeping the neutral conductor in the ceiling void??

 

[RWJ]

It's the Hager Sollysta Range

sollysta White Moulded Hager


Although I doesn't mention it on the website it is in the PDF brochure.... PAGE 9

http://download.hager.com/hager.uk/files_download/general_catalogue/7_sollysta.pdf

 

[Guest 004]

I don't like neutrals at switches if they are not needed, and you will have to block it, which I totally disagree with.

 

[londonlec]

Its much easier and safer making off terminations at switch height as opposed to hanging off steps ten foot in the air.

 

[Electricalserv]

Never came across this....anyone got any pictures of how its done? Doesn't sound good to me...

 

[malcolmsanford]

Its much easier and safer making off terminations at switch height as opposed to hanging off steps ten foot in the air.

I was just writing that. As I said I was taught the conventional way, but there as been many a time when you have a loop in, loop out, and S/l/live up in a ceiling rose, where I wish there was just the one cable there, and I can mess about at the switch doing this.

 

[Engineer54]

Its much easier and safer making off terminations at switch height as opposed to hanging off steps ten foot in the air.

As i said ...more laziness than any real need for a neutral in a switch box...

 

[Electricalserv]

I was just writing that. As I said I was taught the conventional way, but there as been many a time when you have a loop in, loop out, and S/l/live up in a ceiling rose, where I wish there was just the one cable there, and I can mess about at the switch doing this.

Is it o.k takeing a Zs measurement at the switch though......

 

[Adam W]

For down lighters, what's wrong with keeping the neutral conductor in the ceiling void??

Why not ask yourself ''what's right with it'' ??? If you don't loop the neutral at the switch you'd have to loop the live at one of the downlighers.... But which one?

 

[aptsys]

IMO it works better, especially when you consider that a lot of decorative light fittings make no allowance for loop-in at the rose. I can't see how you could consider it lazy though, if anything it is more work.

 

[Electricalserv]

I have never ever seen this....Is it really so common....I was always taught loop in ceiling rose.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Is it o.k takeing a Zs measurement at the switch though......

You still have the CPC at the light, all you have is the S/L and Neutral and CPC. So even with the 2 plate system I would do the Zs at the light fitting.

 

[High Tower]

If there's no need for a neutral at the switch, then No i don't like it. A lot of this looping neutrals at the switch is more by laziness than for any real need. If you were wiring an outside light , fine bring a neutral to the switch. For down lighters, what's wrong with keeping the neutral conductor in the ceiling void??

Yeah cracking idea!, loop the Neutral in a JB or some other nastiness and then hide it somewhere in the ceiling void! top idea that

 

[Engineer54]

Well, ....seeing as your hiding all the other connections anyway, why not?? Neutrals at switch points when there not needed is a nonsence!!

 

[aptsys]

Not really.

 

[Adam W]

The idea is not to get a neutral at the switch, rather not to have a live looped in elsewhere.

 

[morph]

i nearly always do it this way
better for most modern lights that only take tiny cables , looping at the light on a modern light fitting nearly always means a j/b which is poor practice
at the switch all connections are available and easy to work on.

 

[glasgowbiker42]

the loop in system never came to prominence till the early eighties before that the neutrals were taken to the light switches or junction box's i.e. if a house was split level jou had a j.b in the upstairs landing servicing the downstairs lights and one in the attic for upstairs. Benefit is you only have one cable at each light fitting point.Another method is to use 10A D.P switches i.e. MK K4876WHI.

 

[oldtimer]

I have never seen double pole (2 plate ?) switching on a light circuit but I have seen a neutral passing through a lightswitch due to the way it was wired years ago ie fuseboard at low level conduit out to a 4x4 in the hall and a conduit to each light point via the switch and with single cables the neutral passed through but with T&E you tend to see a neutral joint but in this case someone has decided to double pole switch the lights.

On other thing to point out power sockets and fuse spurs are beginning to be double poled switching and when you think of it this is a good thing if you have a neutral to earth fault downstram of the switch/socket and theres a RCD involved as well

 

[Des 56]

If there's no need for a neutral at the switch, then No i don't like it.

Strong views on this subject
Only picked out this quote just to emphasise the word like

Like it or dis like it ?
I have no issue with either method,they have advantages and dis advantages

Like is not in the Brb
If you approve of one over the other,what reason can you give that is backed up by the book ?
If you cant give a book reason there is no right or wrong way

 

[Electricalserv]

Loop in system to ceiling rose everytime for me. New fittings can be connector blocked at rose which is essentially what a ceiling rose is. Cables are accessible then and a JB above ceiling is not needed.

 

[Richard]

Can't see a problem with it at all, and have wired 100's of new propertys this way! If Ikea and co start designing their fittings to be slightly more accomdating to receiving 3 cables then maybe i'd think twice!

 

[Engineer54]

Let me put it this way then, .... I wouldn't and haven't allowed it on any of my projects in the past, and wont allow it on my next project!!! If a neutral is needed for outside lights and the like, fine i have no-problem with that, but i do have a problem with using the switch points as junction boxes as a wiring system!!! No Way Ho Say!!!!!

Only ever seen this tried once on a project, and that was on a stand alone smallish building on a large shopping centre complex. In this case the building was very much like a normal house build, and using T&E wiring methods. Only caught it after a good 2/3rds of the first fix had been installed. Just the same, ...it all came out!!!

 

[kw1980]

I have always wired light circuits this way, its far easier to terminate imo. Plus i once saw a guy wire loop in at a bathroom light, which also had a shaver point, a timer fan and a mirror light, then what a mess he made trying to terminate 7 t&e or 3c cables at a light fitting. Im equally at ease working on any system, loop in at lights, neutrals at switches or a junction box but if im new wiring definitely take the neutral to the switch, also makes it easier for any future work as you only need to run one cable to pick up a feed and neutral.

 

[johnboy6083]

i dont often do domestic, but when i have, its been loop in method. a bloke i sometimes sub for, wires all his jobs with neutrals at the switchs, and for him, its easie. i would be happy doing either to be honest.

 

[Gravid]

I did a new build last year, in the whole house the only rooms with ceiling lights had downlights the rest where 5A skts or wall lights, so the whole house was switch fed. All connections accessible and no hidden JB's for the next man. Had they wanted centre lights would have done loop in.
IMO being for or against a perfectly acceptable way of wiring lights is ridiculous, the way i see it which ever works best and uses less cable/jb's/connectors etc gets my vote.

 

[Phil]

i have done it both ways and tbh don`t mind either. when i did do it at the switch i can tell you it was not through laziness as suggested in a previous post. if there is room for it at the switch then why not? i have put up more than enough awkward fittings that i would have rather had the loop at the switch instead of the fittings. so for me either way i don`t mind

 

[Engineer54]

I'm getting to understand the meaning of Domestic installers now!!!!

 

[RWJ]

I won't mention 6241 singles straight to switch method....... Seen in many offices

 

[topquark]

If I play devils advocate here, you don't need a loop out of either line or neutral at the ceiling rose, it's done for convenience.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I've yet to come across anyone who can give a valid reason why a neutral at a switch is bad practice,other than "I dont like it"...??

Engineer54...give us a valid ELECTRICAL reason why a neutral at a switch is bad practice.....(and PLEASE not just because it is not needed)....a permanant live is not needed at the light either,but it will be there.

 

[Guest 004]

well I was always taught that it was a no no, and although there is no regulation against, I consider it bad practice, connector blocks should not be used in switches. Even if you were to use double pole switches, it would not help with 2 way and intermediate's.

In my 25 years of sparking, I can honestly say that I have never seen it.

I think the difference is having a decent apprenticeship where you was taught what was what, and not what these new kids on the block get taught at college today, then go out into the big world of sparking without any practical experience.

Reminds me of something I saw about 6 years ago working on the CTRL for Drakes (Emcor). basically it was a conduit system that had been 3 plated in singles, and the switch line and feed had been taped together as if it was a twin and earth to go down to the switch, ( brown and blue had been used, and the blue had brown tape on it), and was just so much easier to 2 plate it.

Made me laugh no end, as the guy who did it was always saying 'I am the mutts nuts'

alright Colin you still out there mate?

 

[morph]

knowing the property will have spots and looping in the light fitting is short sighted
knowing the property will have all pendants , looping in the switch is not needed but could still be done.
looping in the switch with a 3 gang switch is economical on cable too one feed and three switch lines
pros and cons both ways at the end of the day, i happen to think it works very well in a domestic situation

 

[Deleted member 9648]

well I was always taught that it was a no no, and although there is no regulation against, I consider it bad practice, connector blocks should not be used in switches. Even if you were to use double pole switches, it would not help with 2 way and intermediate's.

In my 25 years of sparking, I can honestly say that I have never seen it.

I think the difference is having a decent apprenticeship where you was taught what was what, and not what these new kids on the block get taught at college today, then go out into the big world of sparking without any practical experience.

Reminds me of something I saw about 6 years ago working on the CTRL for Drakes (Emcor). basically it was a conduit system that had been 3 plated in singles, and the switch line and feed had been taped together as if it was a twin and earth to go down to the switch, ( brown and blue had been used, and the blue had brown tape on it), and was just so much easier to 2 plate it.

Made me laugh no end, as the guy who did it was always saying 'I am the mutts nuts'

alright Colin you still out there mate?

Again.....Give a valid electrical reason not just blind prejudice.
Many luminaires (wall lights,down lights) are not practical to 3 plate....running feeds through switches and having one cable at the lights is safer and more practical in an awful lot of instances,.....I'm a time served sparks of 30 yrs and have used the method many times.
To any recently qualified people unsure after reading this thread ,IT IS NOT BAD PRACTICE TO RUN NEUTRALS THROUGH SWITCHES WHEN CIRCUMSTANCES DICTATE.

 

[Guest 004]

Who did you do your time with wirepuller?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

An NIC approved contractor.

 

[One_of_them]

I dont see the problem with neutrals at the switch and dont see what all the fuss is about??
Either way works
And either way can make that particular job easy/difficult
Personally though I use a wago for the neutrals at the switch

happy days

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Still nobody has been able to give a reason why neutrals in switches are bad practice...Any takers?...anyone?

 

[kw1980]

well I was always taught that it was a no no, and although there is no regulation against, I consider it bad practice, connector blocks should not be used in switches. Even if you were to use double pole switches, it would not help with 2 way and intermediate's.

In my 25 years of sparking, I can honestly say that I have never seen it.

I think the difference is having a decent apprenticeship where you was taught what was what, and not what these new kids on the block get taught at college today, then go out into the big world of sparking without any practical experience.

Reminds me of something I saw about 6 years ago working on the CTRL for Drakes (Emcor). basically it was a conduit system that had been 3 plated in singles, and the switch line and feed had been taped together as if it was a twin and earth to go down to the switch, ( brown and blue had been used, and the blue had brown tape on it), and was just so much easier to 2 plate it.

Made me laugh no end, as the guy who did it was always saying 'I am the mutts nuts'

alright Colin you still out there mate?

Just because someone does things differently to yourself doesnt mean they havent had a decent apprenticeship or are inexperienced with the practical aspect of the trade. As has been pointed out there are benefits to both systems and no valid reason against either. I have worked for 13 years in the domestic field and worked for probably any major housebuilder you care to mention and i have only ever met 1 electrician who wired loop in at the lights, i had no problem with him doing this the way he felt was best and certainly wouldnt have questioned his electrical ability.

 

[morph]

Still nobody has been able to give a reason why neutrals in switches are bad practice...Any takers?...anyone?

because there no reasons !

 

[topquark]

Still nobody has been able to give a reason why neutrals in switches are bad practice...Any takers?...anyone?

The only thing I can think of is when you introduce joe public to the equation; doing his like for like replacement. But that goes just the same for a ceiling rose, so no increased risk per se.

 

[Engineer54]

,IT IS NOT BAD PRACTICE TO RUN NEUTRALS THROUGH SWITCHES WHEN CIRCUMSTANCES DICTATE.

Tell me then, .....Were you actually taught during serving your time, to wire thru switch points as a standard wiring practice, using them as joint boxes?? I'll answer that for you, ....No you wasn't!!! Perhaps maybe because it was and as far as i'm concerned still is not a good practice!!!!

I don't think anyone here opposed to wiring thru switch boxes, is saying never a neutral at a switch box!! As i say if wiring for an outside light etc, no problem....

 

[Deleted member 9648]

In fairness to Mrenigma I do seem to recall from my apprenticeship...(30 yrs ago!) that neutrals in switches were always considered bad practice.....however there has been a general change of view on this in the trade AND in the NIC...mainly I believe because nobody has ever been able to come up with a reason why it's bad practice.