Not sure what our options are. Advice required for homeowner please.

[eiluj68]

Hi

Apologies for the length of this post but I'd like to provide as much information as possible

We moved house last October knowing that the property would require a full rewire. Our electrician completed the rewire (including new consumer unit) in December last year and although we were unhappy about his reliability at points during the process, we were pleased that the job had been completed and that he had issued a certificate detailing the work done. The rewire didn't include any work in the bathroom or kitchen as our intention was to completely refurbish these rooms at a later date.

That time has now come and we decided against using the previous electrician due to the reliability issues mentioned above A local electrician came to the house last night to discuss our requirements. He had a few questions about the exisiting electrical set up so I dug out the 3 page certificate that the previous electrician had issued. Upon viewing the certificate the electrician commented that the certificate didn't show which body the issuing electrician belonged to. He said that without the registration body information and registration number the certificate would not be acceptable to building control. He also said that the previous work should have been notified to building control either prior to work commencing by an unregistered person or afterwards by the registered 'competent person'.

This set off alarm bells. I've spent this morning online trying to find him listed with one of the registered bodies but he doesn't appear on any of the sites I've been to. I've looked at NICEIC, ELECSA, NAPIT,BSI, Kitemark and Benchmark Certification Ltd (CORGI Membership). Are there any others he could be registered with that would allow him to certify his work?

We had used this electrician on a smaller job (wiring an ensuite shower room) at our old home 3 or 4 years ago and had been really pleased with his work. He had issued a certificate for this work too and also came heavily recommended on a local community website, so we had no reason to think he shouldn't be certifying his own work. Although no rewiring took place in the bathroom, kitchen and garden areas I'm assuming that this is notifiable work because he installed a new consumer unit?

I'm not sure what to do next. I haven't spoken with the electrician yet because I want to get my facts straight first. I'm worried about contacting the council because I've read that they can fine the householder upto £5000 if work that should have been notified in advance hasn't been. I also need to understand what we might be forced to do if the certificate is invalid. Are we likely to have to lift all our floorboards again and reexpose all the cables within the walls ?

This is so frustrating because we would never have had the electrician undertake the job if there'd been any suggestion that he could not certify his own work.

Apart from berating us for being so foolish as to take him at his word without checking him out further at the time, can anyone offer any constructive advice on how we should deal with this situation. Although we've lived at our current address less than a year we want to ensure that we don't have any problems when we come to sell in the future.

Many thanks for taking the time to read this and for any useful advice you may be able to provide.

 

[Octopus]

I feel for you as it would seem that you may have been "had". Have you got any paperwork other than the certificate you were issued with any reference to his registration?

This link is the place to search for your "previous" electrician:

Local Authority Building Control - HOME

It would be a good idea to check this site against any electrician claiming to be part of a scheme before you engage them to do work in your house from now on.

For anyone else who reads this, and they are contemplating getting notifiable work done, its important that you get the scheme name and number off the individual as part of the estimating process. If the electrican is registered they will have the information to hand, if they are evasive it should set alarm bells ringing.

Good luck

 

[eiluj68]

I feel for you as it would seem that you may have been "had". Have you got any paperwork other than the certificate you were issued with any reference to his registration?

This link is the place to search for your "previous" electrician:

Local Authority Building Control - HOME

Thanks for replying. Yes I think you are correct. We do appear to have been "had". The electrician in question isn't listed on the link you provided. The only communication we have other than verbal is an emailed quote which has no registration details, just an address and contact number.

Does anyone have any idea of how building control are likely to respond in this scenario? Is it worth having a full PIR done or is that a waste of time and money in these circumstances. My understanding is that no electrician will be able to certify this work even after a full PIR. Is this correct?

Do we have any other option other than going to building control?

 

[Octopus]

I think that the only way to get an answer on this scenario would be to speak/visit building control for your area. I'm sure that you won't be the first person to have this conversation with them, nor the last. More importantly they will be able to guide you as to what you need to do next.

Its a shame that there isn't a way to name and shame the scam electricians!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1) Being competent to work to, and certify compliance with the Wiring Regulations is different from being able to self-certify compliance with the Building Regulations, and there's no need to belong to any of the registration bodies to be able to do the former, so you have no need to worry, per se, that the actual work he did was dodgy.

Did he actually issue you with anything saying that the work complied with the Building Regulations, or just an EIC certifying compliance with BS 7671? If the former he was guilty of fraud, if the latter then your recent electrician was scaremongering - there's nothing intrinsically wrong with an EIC issued by an unregistered electrician.


2) You didn't do the work, so you weren't required to notify it, and it's not you who is liable for prosecution, fines or imprisonment. (In practice neither is the electrician - there has never been an instance of anyone being prosecuted just for failing to notify.)

You could talk to your LABC about it, and see if there's any way you can get a regularisation certificate (which will cost ££ - typically they charge twice what the notification fee would have been). They might be happy with a PIR (Periodic Inspection Report), in which case the total cost to you will almost certainly come in at under £1,000.

PLAN B - don't talk to LABC, have whoever you get to do the kitchen and bathroom also carry out a thorough inspection and test of the other work, and when you sell, if you're asked, tell the prospective purchaser what happened, tell them that you had it all professionally checked out when you realised what had happened and it was all found to be OK.

 

[Octopus]

1) Being competent to work to, and certify compliance with the Wiring Regulations is different from being able to self-certify compliance with the Building Regulations, and there's no need to belong to any of the registration bodies to be able to do the former, so you have no need to worry, per se, that the actual work he did was dodgy.

Did he actually issue you with anything saying that the work complied with the Building Regulations, or just an EIC certifying compliance with BS 7671? If the former he was guilty of fraud, if the latter then your recent electrician was scaremongering - there's nothing intrinsically wrong with an EIC issued by an unregistered electrician.


2) You didn't do the work, so you weren't required to notify it, and it's not you who is liable for prosecution, fines or imprisonment. (In practice neither is the electrician - there has never been an instance of anyone being prosecuted just for failing to notify.)

You could talk to your LABC about it, and see if there's any way you can get a regularisation certificate (which will cost ££ - typically they charge twice what the notification fee would have been). They might be happy with a PIR (Periodic Inspection Report), in which case the total cost to you will almost certainly come in at under £1,000.

PLAN B - don't talk to LABC, have whoever you get to do the kitchen and bathroom also carry out a thorough inspection and test of the other work, and when you sell, if you're asked, tell the prospective purchaser what happened, tell them that you had it all professionally checked out when you realised what had happened and it was all found to be OK.

A some contraversial approach to the question. Seems you have form on forums!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It would be a good idea to check this site against any electrician claiming to be part of a scheme before you engage them to do work in your house from now on.

For anyone else who reads this, and they are contemplating getting notifiable work done, its important that you get the scheme name and number off the individual as part of the estimating process. If the electrican is registered they will have the information to hand, if they are evasive it should set alarm bells ringing.

Good luck

That's good advice, and should be followed, but I would add that it's not enough on its own to ensure people get a competent electrician.

As ever, personal recommendations are always the best way to find a reputable tradesman, but if you're having to go ahead without much in the way of those, or references, don't put any store by registration itself - sadly it is possible to become registered with woefully inadequate qualifications and zero practical experience. You don't have to spend long here to see people cropping up who are registered and "qualified", but who are clearly seriously incompetent in reality and who should not be charging for their services.

The OP was looking for someone to rewire a house, and it may surprise and dismay him to learn that it is quite possible to become a "certified electrician" without ever having done that before, and without having acquired any of the practical skills needed to do it without half-destroying peoples houses in the process.

I think prospective customers have every right to ask prospective tradesmen what their qualifications and experience are. Just being listed here is not a good enough guide. No genuinely experienced electrician, with the "full set" of C&G qualifications will mind you asking - in fact he will wish that everyone was like you.

I feel sorry for people who have been misled by training organisations and (shamefully) the Competent Person scheme organisers into thinking that a 5-day training course, a couple of trivial examples of their work and some basic understanding of how to use test equipment will make them an electrician, but not sorry enough to agree with them trying to sell their services to Joe Public.

 

[Octopus]

That's good advice, and should be followed, but I would add that it's not enough on its own to ensure people get a competent electrician.

As ever, personal recommendations are always the best way to find a reputable tradesman, but if you're having to go ahead without much in the way of those, or references, don't put any store by registration itself - sadly it is possible to become registered with woefully inadequate qualifications and zero practical experience. You don't have to spend long here to see people cropping up who are registered and "qualified", but who are clearly seriously incompetent in reality and who should not be charging for their services.

The OP was looking for someone to rewire a house, and it may surprise and dismay him to learn that it is quite possible to become a "certified electrician" without ever having done that before, and without having acquired any of the practical skills needed to do it without half-destroying peoples houses in the process.

I think prospective customers have every right to ask prospective tradesmen what their qualifications and experience are. Just being listed here is not a good enough guide. No genuinely experienced electrician, with the "full set" of C&G qualifications will mind you asking - in fact he will wish that everyone was like you.

I feel sorry for people who have been misled by training organisations and (shamefully) the Competent Person scheme organisers into thinking that a 5-day training course, a couple of trivial examples of their work and some basic understanding of how to use test equipment will make them an electrician, but not sorry enough to agree with them trying to sell their services to Joe Public.

A some contraversial approach to the question. Seems you have form on forums and now this one

 

[eiluj68]

Its a shame that there isn't a way to name and shame the scam electricians!

Well I could always post a warning on the local forum where he is currently highly recommended. He gets a lot of business via that route. :biggrin5:

I'd have to be careful though. Probably wouldn't be allowed to name names but I could warn everyone to check registration details of any electricians they use.

One more question - does the fact that the he issued a certificate prove that he was trying to pass himself off as a 'competent person' or is it common for these certificates to be issued regardless. I'm just trying to pre-empt his response when I contact him. I'm just wondering if he might claim that the certificate is purely a list of all the individual jobs/tests that he's done, rather than an attempt to officially "certify" his work.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

A some contraversial approach to the question.

So you don't think that choosing an electrician solely on the basis of being registered is dodgy? You think that any electrician who is registered is guaranteed to be fully competent?

I'd love to know what you think is controversial in what I wrote....

 

[ban-all-sheds]

One more question - does the fact that the he issued a certificate prove that he was trying to pass himself off as a 'competent person' or is it common for these certificates to be issued regardless. I'm just trying to pre-empt his response when I contact him. I'm just wondering if he might claim that the certificate is purely a list of all the individual jobs/tests that he's done, rather than an attempt to officially "certify" his work.

What certificate did he give you?

 

[simonspark]

Hey Murdoch. I've just done a searh for me on the link you put in, and I don''t exist!
I'm nic approved etc. So where am I?

 

[vernam616]

well by the sounds of it he doesnt sound all that dodgy

How many scam electricians just dont bother testing? take the money and run?

Hes took the time to test his work and issue a certificate, personally id call him and tell him your not happy and ask for a explanation

You could always pay someone to change your consumer unit albeit it doesnt need doing, whoever changes that is responsible for testing the full installation


Or play completely dumb, if anything ever crops up just say the rewire was carried out prior to you moving in by previous owners/tenants

 

[alanl]

I did the same, and came with no result, but then I read it more, and only put the 1st 3 digits of the postcode, and 2 letters of name, and it came up.
Alan.

 

[eiluj68]

That's good advice, and should be followed, but I would add that it's not enough on its own to ensure people get a competent electrician.

As ever, personal recommendations are always the best way to find a reputable tradesman

Thanks for the reply. We did find the electrician by way of recommendation on our local community forum/website. We've successfully sourced other tradesmen via this route before but our luck ran out this time. I guess we were too complacent and should have been more thorough with our checks. Lesson learned!

 

[simonspark]

Eiluj68. There are certain certificates that anyone can buy over the counter, or download for free. Anyone can get them. Can you scan them, with name address etc blanked out, and Im sure me and the guys will suss out whats what

 

[Octopus]

Well I could always post a warning on the local forum where he is currently highly recommended. He gets a lot of business via that route. :biggrin5:

I'd have to be careful though. Probably wouldn't be allowed to name names but I could warn everyone to check registration details of any electricians they use.

One more question - does the fact that the he issued a certificate prove that he was trying to pass himself off as a 'competent person' or is it common for these certificates to be issued regardless. I'm just trying to pre-empt his response when I contact him. I'm just wondering if he might claim that the certificate is purely a list of all the individual jobs/tests that he's done, rather than an attempt to officially "certify" his work.

The fact he issued a certificate, at the very least is some form of acknowledgement that certificates are required.

I guess it would come down to what his written, emailed estimate said - did he refer to LABC (local area building control) notification in any way? When I provide estimates for notifiable work, this is confirmed on my estimate.

 

[eiluj68]

What certificate did he give you?

Hi,

I'm at work at the moment so don't have the certificate to hand. It had 3 pages and was green and white as I recall. Each room was listed and there were boxes for testing results which had all been completed.

 

[eiluj68]

Eiluj68. There are certain certificates that anyone can buy over the counter, or download for free. Anyone can get them. Can you scan them, with name address etc blanked out, and Im sure me and the guys will suss out whats what

Thanks. I'll scan them in when I get home.

You guys are great :smiley2: Thanks so much for all your replies so far.

 

[alanl]

Before going off on one, maybe you should ask him if he is Registered for Self-certification.
I know the paperwork and test results I give out do not show any membership number etc., and as a Sole Trader, it can be easy to confuse the Trading name, and my own name, so a search may not bring up the details of my business.
To be honest, if you are happy with the work he did, then there is little reason to take things further, as it appears he knew what he was doing by thorough testing, and he did issue test results and Install Cert., so if these tally up, then there is no safety problem if he has followed the current regulations.

This ncould all be down to a lost in the post certificate from the Governing body, or he may have forgotten to register it with the body. i know I have come close to not notifying as I have forgotten about some jobs. A rewire I did was spread over 6 weeks, and that was nearly not notified, I only remebered as I had to go back and fit a new light.

Chill a little!
Alan.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Hi,

I'm at work at the moment so don't have the certificate to hand. It had 3 pages and was green and white as I recall. Each room was listed and there were boxes for testing results which had all been completed.

Sounds like an EIC, whch he should have issued anyway, registered or not.

Issuing one, detailing the testing etc that he did, is not only not an attempt to pass himself off as registered, it is required by the Wiring Regulations.

Unless it's a complete fabrication, the fact that he did one is encouraging - try vernam's first suggestion. (But not his 3rd - it's not worth risking a prosecution for fraud, no matter how small the risk.)

 

[vernam616]

How are they going to prove that you had that rewire carried out? you cant specifically tell when cable/accs where installed

There will only ever be a problem if something go's wrong, get a registered electrician out to carry out a full inspection

 

[Octopus]

I agree that it's a small risk, but...

Essentially you'd be making false statements as part of a financial transaction with a value of hundreds of thousands of pounds - it just isn't worth it.

In one of your earlier posts you were advocating not talking to LABC, surely that is also a no no?????????

 

[rob121]

Not sure if this has already been mentioned (as I only flicked through posts, so sorry if it has), but if you mention it to the LABC they may just ask you to fill in a regularisation application. Normally costs price of building notice (between £200-£300) + 10%. I had an issue with this for my NIC assessment when I completed the job but hadnt notified building control (dont ask). In the end they had a winge and then done it as a building notice. Cost me £210, bloke came out tested and inspected, wrote certificate out, job done. I wouldnt worry too much. As already mentioned its down to him and not you. I would phone him and verify all this first as it maybe he has already notified them. Certificates from building control took 2 1/2 weeks to come through on my jobs.

Happy hunting,

Rob

 

[Adam W]

Where does it say you can't use generic forms which you've bought from the wholesaler or even downloaded from the IET website? Provided the work has been done to an acceptable standard, all the inspection and testing done and the appropriate certificates filled in correctly I don't see the problem; as already mentioned anyone can join a scheme after a couple of weeks - having a fancy pad of forms with logos on them and sending them to the right people doesn't make someone a good or (in my eyes) even competent electrician.
For all we know this guy could have been doing sterling work for 20 years, have more qualifications than you can shake a stick at, and just disagree with having to pay through the nose for some scheme provider - if he was a scammer or a cowboy or both I doubt he would have issued any paperwork at all.

As mentioned if there are no apparent problems I see no cause for concern, although I'll happily cast my eye over the certs which have been issued.

 

[eiluj68]

Thanks for your patience guys. I've scanned the certificate as you can see below, having removed all names and addresses first.



It all looks kosher to a non-electrically trained person as myself. I wouldn't have thought to question this if the electrician I saw yesterday hadn't queried the certificate when he saw it. I've had another electrician round to quote tonight and he didn't think we should be too worried, although we definitely didn't get a certificate from building control. He also said that registration with all the various bodies such as NICEIC etc is voluntary and that you can still issue certificates provided you're fully qualified and deemed competent (how do you do that?). This electrician is registered with ELECSA.

 

[Rappid]

Tails are undersized, should be 25mm.
PSCC for a BS1361 Type II is 33KA, where did he get 11KA from?
He's quoted TN-S as 0.85

 

[Rappid]

He's only put down the model number of his MFT not the serial number.

 

[Rappid]

It all looks kosher to a non-electrically trained person as myself. I wouldn't have thought to question this if the electrician I saw yesterday hadn't queried the certificate when he saw it. I've had another electrician round to quote tonight and he didn't think we should be too worried, although we definitely didn't get a certificate from building control. He also said that registration with all the various bodies such as NICEIC etc is voluntary and that you can still issue certificates provided you're fully qualified and deemed competent (how do you do that?). This electrician is registered with ELECSA.

He's right in saying registration with a governing body is optional, but if you still have to notify building control for major works in this case rewire and consumer unit replacement. If the electrician is not part of a scheme, you have to notify building control what work will be carried out before work starts.

 

[not clever]

Installation is new? (more like alteration if he isnt rewiring all the circuits)
TNs Ze 0.85 ohms?
80amp T2 1361 = 11ka?
Max demand 120 ?
(Main switch circuit breaker) 80947-3?
16mm tails ok so long as service fuse is indeed no higher than 80amp (would normaly be upgraded to 25mm on a board change.
No selv or double insulation anywhere in the property?
No barriers or enclosures?

R1+R2 on the lighting circuits, I would have thought they would be higher readings.
No meter serial number

Gave up
But as he has changed the cu & I assume connected all the properties circuits to the new cu, then he has to test & cert all the circuits including the kitchen & boiler.