Not sure what our options are. Advice required for homeowner please.

[ban-all-sheds]

Hi,

I'm at work at the moment so don't have the certificate to hand. It had 3 pages and was green and white as I recall. Each room was listed and there were boxes for testing results which had all been completed.

Sounds like an EIC, whch he should have issued anyway, registered or not.

Issuing one, detailing the testing etc that he did, is not only not an attempt to pass himself off as registered, it is required by the Wiring Regulations.

Unless it's a complete fabrication, the fact that he did one is encouraging - try vernam's first suggestion. (But not his 3rd - it's not worth risking a prosecution for fraud, no matter how small the risk.)

 

[vernam616]

How are they going to prove that you had that rewire carried out? you cant specifically tell when cable/accs where installed

There will only ever be a problem if something go's wrong, get a registered electrician out to carry out a full inspection

 

[Octopus]

I agree that it's a small risk, but...

Essentially you'd be making false statements as part of a financial transaction with a value of hundreds of thousands of pounds - it just isn't worth it.

In one of your earlier posts you were advocating not talking to LABC, surely that is also a no no?????????

 

[rob121]

Not sure if this has already been mentioned (as I only flicked through posts, so sorry if it has), but if you mention it to the LABC they may just ask you to fill in a regularisation application. Normally costs price of building notice (between £200-£300) + 10%. I had an issue with this for my NIC assessment when I completed the job but hadnt notified building control (dont ask). In the end they had a winge and then done it as a building notice. Cost me £210, bloke came out tested and inspected, wrote certificate out, job done. I wouldnt worry too much. As already mentioned its down to him and not you. I would phone him and verify all this first as it maybe he has already notified them. Certificates from building control took 2 1/2 weeks to come through on my jobs.

Happy hunting,

Rob

 

[Adam W]

Where does it say you can't use generic forms which you've bought from the wholesaler or even downloaded from the IET website? Provided the work has been done to an acceptable standard, all the inspection and testing done and the appropriate certificates filled in correctly I don't see the problem; as already mentioned anyone can join a scheme after a couple of weeks - having a fancy pad of forms with logos on them and sending them to the right people doesn't make someone a good or (in my eyes) even competent electrician.
For all we know this guy could have been doing sterling work for 20 years, have more qualifications than you can shake a stick at, and just disagree with having to pay through the nose for some scheme provider - if he was a scammer or a cowboy or both I doubt he would have issued any paperwork at all.

As mentioned if there are no apparent problems I see no cause for concern, although I'll happily cast my eye over the certs which have been issued.

 

[eiluj68]

Thanks for your patience guys. I've scanned the certificate as you can see below, having removed all names and addresses first.



It all looks kosher to a non-electrically trained person as myself. I wouldn't have thought to question this if the electrician I saw yesterday hadn't queried the certificate when he saw it. I've had another electrician round to quote tonight and he didn't think we should be too worried, although we definitely didn't get a certificate from building control. He also said that registration with all the various bodies such as NICEIC etc is voluntary and that you can still issue certificates provided you're fully qualified and deemed competent (how do you do that?). This electrician is registered with ELECSA.

 

[Rappid]

Tails are undersized, should be 25mm.
PSCC for a BS1361 Type II is 33KA, where did he get 11KA from?
He's quoted TN-S as 0.85

 

[Rappid]

He's only put down the model number of his MFT not the serial number.

 

[Rappid]

It all looks kosher to a non-electrically trained person as myself. I wouldn't have thought to question this if the electrician I saw yesterday hadn't queried the certificate when he saw it. I've had another electrician round to quote tonight and he didn't think we should be too worried, although we definitely didn't get a certificate from building control. He also said that registration with all the various bodies such as NICEIC etc is voluntary and that you can still issue certificates provided you're fully qualified and deemed competent (how do you do that?). This electrician is registered with ELECSA.

He's right in saying registration with a governing body is optional, but if you still have to notify building control for major works in this case rewire and consumer unit replacement. If the electrician is not part of a scheme, you have to notify building control what work will be carried out before work starts.

 

[not clever]

Installation is new? (more like alteration if he isnt rewiring all the circuits)
TNs Ze 0.85 ohms?
80amp T2 1361 = 11ka?
Max demand 120 ?
(Main switch circuit breaker) 80947-3?
16mm tails ok so long as service fuse is indeed no higher than 80amp (would normaly be upgraded to 25mm on a board change.
No selv or double insulation anywhere in the property?
No barriers or enclosures?

R1+R2 on the lighting circuits, I would have thought they would be higher readings.
No meter serial number

Gave up
But as he has changed the cu & I assume connected all the properties circuits to the new cu, then he has to test & cert all the circuits including the kitchen & boiler.

 

[Des 56]

Nice to see at least one homeowner who has heard of building reg part p, and his responsibility
He is almost unique,most dont know or dont care,

I suppose he is the type who would report himself to the police if he exceeded the speed limit then

Why so much slagging off of the spark,apparently, the job was to the customers satisfaction until this notification issue

The certificate standard ( its about par for the course for its mistakes) I have seen much, much, worse than that

At least he gave a certificate


He may very well be an excellent installer

 

[Dunc]

A PSC of 0.29kA seems a bit low considering the recorded Ze. There's definitely parts of that certificate that aren't filled out correctly but it's been done by someone with a fair understanding of the regs. Have a chat with the guy who did the work and ask him where the certificate from the LABC is as you haven't received it yet. Make your next moved based on the answers he gives to that question.

 

[eiluj68]

Nice to see at least one homeowner who has heard of building reg part p, and his responsibility
He is almost unique,most dont know or dont care,

Actually it's a her in this case :smilewinkgrin:

There's definitely parts of that certificate that aren't filled out correctly but it's been done by someone with a fair understanding of the regs. Have a chat with the guy who did the work and ask him where the certificate from the LABC is as you haven't received it yet. Make your next moved based on the answers he gives to that question.

Thanks for this advice. Having read everyone's replies I think this is the reasonable response to take. There's a chance that he'll suggest that I should have contacted them myself at the time, but let's see.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to offer advice. It's been most useful.

 

[eiluj68]

Ok. We've moved on a bit since my last post.

I spoke with our old plumber whilst on my way to work this morning. He didn't believe that building control needed to be involved and that he'd done around 10 rewires in the local area recently without building control involvement. He said that he sent a copy of the certificate he gave us to NICEIC and that they would have forwarded it onto the local building control office if necessary.

Yesterday I emailed our local building control department. I asked a generic question about electrical rewiring of a domestic property but didn't give them my address as I wanted to keep the query general. I emailed them from work, forgetting that my telephone contact details would be on there :dunce: and they called me a short while ago. The guy I spoke with was pretty helpful and sympathetic to our situation once I explained it. He confirmed that the work should have been Part P certified and that the certificate we received was not suitable for the work that had been carried out. He suggested that we request a Part P certificate from the electrician and also to contact NICEIC to ask them to check their records to see if the electrician is registered with them as had been implied during the earlier phone conversation. I've emailed NICEIC and will wait to hear back from them before contacting the electrician again.

The building control guy said that they wouldn't investigate the work proactively and we were not likely to 'get into trouble' as they had plenty of unauthorised building work to keep them busy. Our problem would be when we come to sell as the buyers solicitor would ask to see the Part P certificate.

If the original electrician is unable to issue a Part P certificate then we would have 3 options,

1. Find a Part P registered electrician prepared to Part P certify the work done by the original electrican (unlikely I think)
2. Request that our local building control department issue a certificate. This would involve them sending someone qualified to check the work done (may involve exposing some of the work currently hidden under floorboards and in walls) and cost £444 inc vat
3. Ignore the lack of Part P certification but be prepared for problems when selling the house in the future (probably in around 5yrs)

Anyone care to comment on the above? :thinking:

 

[Octopus]

So if he's claiming NICEIC registration did he give you his number?

 

[eiluj68]

So if he's claiming NICEIC registration did he give you his number?

He didn't volunteer it, no. I didn't want to spook him (if he is attempting to mislead) by asking for it. At the moment he thinks I'm casually querying the matter because of a conversation with a friend who is also having a rewire at the moment (this is true).

I'll wait for a response from NICEIC before I speak with him again. If they have no record of him I'll catch him out. If they do then all is well and good and I can get him to issue the Part P certificate he should have issued originally.

I'm not particulary worried that the work he's done is dangerous or incorrect because I know he's been working successfully in the local area for many years. He's actually a really nice guy to have around and we would have used him again but for his unreliability on the previous job. I suspect he's been competently working for many years and resents the new regulations and the need to be reassessed for work he's been doing without any issues for the best part of his working life. However, I don't appreciate being lied to (if that is the case) and the trouble this will cause us when we sell. Ironically, my partner has the ability to rewire the electrics but is not qualified to do so. We took the decision to get a properly qualified electrician in for the job to simplify things.

 

[Dunc]

Sounds far too complicated a situation for my liking and no doubt a touch stressful. My gut feeling is he's not a NIC registered contractor. If this is the case and can be proved without a doubt I would get the council to notify the work at a cost of £444 (a properly registered electrician is not allowed to sign off someone else's work so that's out of the question) then persue the electrician for the costs incurred since he has acted fraudulently. It might be the kick up the a**e he needs if he is not, as I suspect, notifying work like the rest of us who do it by the book. An excuse of 'I don't like the new regs' would be unacceptable in my book. Best of luck.

 

[eiluj68]

NICEIC have confirmed that the electrician is not registered with them.

We now have to decide whether or not to invite building control in to assess the work. We'd be happier to have the work properly certified but the cost of doing so, not to mention any additional costs if they deem the work not upto standard, are a worry. We can try and pursue the electrician for costs but I imagine this will be both time-consuming and stressful.

I've emailed building control for more information on the assessment but does anyone know what happens if they deem that the electrical work does not meet regulations? Obviously, whatever is wrong will have to be corrected but will they charge us the £444 more than once?

 

[Knobhead]

Thank you for keeping us informed of things. I was an industrial electrician so most of what’s gone on has never concerned me. I’d recognised how stupid the domestic side of the industry had gone, but not to this extent! It’s bureaucracy gone mad!

I’m sorry I can’t help but from me you have my full support if I can offer it in any way.

 

[Des 56]

eiluj68
I gave a rather abrupt reply earlier.more to do with the pathetic part p situation than anything else
I will however try and give some balance and reason to this one

Because of the complete and almost total lack of enforcement of the part p building reg by either the electrical bodies or building control.it is not a big a problem, if it is indeed a problem to yourself

Firstly, as you have found,building control have neither the skill or the interest in enforcing the requirements

I am registered for this nonesense part p thing,but registration among electricians is not universal by a long way,many registered on schemes couldn't compare for competence with many who are not registered
The scheme membership is a long way away from having competence has their primary concern,if they have concern at all

When you come to sell your property,you may have to tick a box in the home information pack that asks if any notifiable work under part p has been carried out
You will tick,yes,you may well be asked for the part p certificate that you dont posess

Any house sale that has a recent (within 5 years)periodic inspection,will satisfy all but the most demanding of solicitors and buyers and costs as little as perhaps £150 depending obviously on the size of the property

(There are builders out there currently slapping in the wiring on extensions and new builds having no competence,never mind registration)
They then take out a small fee insurance policy to cover the electrical installation and get around it with impunity

The pir would be the logical step and should be carried out by an electrician who is experienced and competent with perhaps the C+G 2391 as evidence of that competence
It is a far better demonstration of competence than relying on a scheme membership only

You may hear that certification is prefered by an Niceic contractor,this is a myth that pervades councils, architects and estate agents etc
You could have a person who has never held a screwdriver in his hand doing your pir, with the office as the unseeing signatures to a sheet of toilet roll as back up

But if safety is also your priority,make sure the scheme member and importantly the person actually doing the pir, is competent and dont rely on that membership alone

If you get a pir of a competent electrician you will more than likely have no problems whatsoever when you sell
You will find your concerns at the moment will become wonder at why you thought there was a problem at all