Not sure what our options are. Advice required for homeowner please.

[eiluj68]

Hi

Apologies for the length of this post but I'd like to provide as much information as possible

We moved house last October knowing that the property would require a full rewire. Our electrician completed the rewire (including new consumer unit) in December last year and although we were unhappy about his reliability at points during the process, we were pleased that the job had been completed and that he had issued a certificate detailing the work done. The rewire didn't include any work in the bathroom or kitchen as our intention was to completely refurbish these rooms at a later date.

That time has now come and we decided against using the previous electrician due to the reliability issues mentioned above A local electrician came to the house last night to discuss our requirements. He had a few questions about the exisiting electrical set up so I dug out the 3 page certificate that the previous electrician had issued. Upon viewing the certificate the electrician commented that the certificate didn't show which body the issuing electrician belonged to. He said that without the registration body information and registration number the certificate would not be acceptable to building control. He also said that the previous work should have been notified to building control either prior to work commencing by an unregistered person or afterwards by the registered 'competent person'.

This set off alarm bells. I've spent this morning online trying to find him listed with one of the registered bodies but he doesn't appear on any of the sites I've been to. I've looked at NICEIC, ELECSA, NAPIT,BSI, Kitemark and Benchmark Certification Ltd (CORGI Membership). Are there any others he could be registered with that would allow him to certify his work?

We had used this electrician on a smaller job (wiring an ensuite shower room) at our old home 3 or 4 years ago and had been really pleased with his work. He had issued a certificate for this work too and also came heavily recommended on a local community website, so we had no reason to think he shouldn't be certifying his own work. Although no rewiring took place in the bathroom, kitchen and garden areas I'm assuming that this is notifiable work because he installed a new consumer unit?

I'm not sure what to do next. I haven't spoken with the electrician yet because I want to get my facts straight first. I'm worried about contacting the council because I've read that they can fine the householder upto £5000 if work that should have been notified in advance hasn't been. I also need to understand what we might be forced to do if the certificate is invalid. Are we likely to have to lift all our floorboards again and reexpose all the cables within the walls ?

This is so frustrating because we would never have had the electrician undertake the job if there'd been any suggestion that he could not certify his own work.

Apart from berating us for being so foolish as to take him at his word without checking him out further at the time, can anyone offer any constructive advice on how we should deal with this situation. Although we've lived at our current address less than a year we want to ensure that we don't have any problems when we come to sell in the future.

Many thanks for taking the time to read this and for any useful advice you may be able to provide.

 

[SW1970]

Post #28. The certificates are green.

This is from the NICEIC website: </title> <meta name="description" content="" /> <meta name="keywords" content="" /> <meta name="author" content="Farquhar Design and Julian Samuel Web Development" /> <link rel="shortcut icon" href="/Content/Images/niceicfavicon.ico" type="image/x-ic

"Click the titles to download pdfs of green specimen NICEIC certificates, which are issued by non-approved electrical contractors."

I'm with a different scheme operator. What on earth is a "non-approved electrical contractor"?

What is the domestic customer to make of that? Can any old tradesman get hold of these green certificates and issue them? Has our OP here fallen foul of that?

 

[SW1970]

Not sure why link looks funny but it works ok.

 

[Rappid]

I guess I should probably just cut to the chase now and ask him for his registration number.

I would and see what he says. If he has a registration number, he has nothing to hide.

 

[Rappid]

Purple - Domestic installer
Red - Approved contractor
Green - Non NIC/EIC member

 

[telectrix]

forgive me if i've misse dseomething as i've been away 3 days and just glanced through the posts. not read all of them. 1 post suggested that the problem may arise on selling the house. in this case, a PIR might be the answer. as i've said, i've not read all the posts so forgive me if this has already been suggested.

 

[simonspark]

Eiluy68. He cannot take the certs to the NICEIC and 4-6 weeks later they issue you with 'real ones'. it doesn't work that way. However, somewhere in Approved document P (Yes. THE Part P). I think there is a way around this. Obviously (spinlondon, take note!) I havent got it with me, but somewhere in it theres a section telling you what to if you had an unregistered electrician who was qualified. Help me out someone. Have a leaf through Part P

 

[simonspark]

Oh gawd. Here we are again. Spinlondon I bear no malice and do not want to anger you. Please accept my apologies for stating that 'You are wrong'. I was wrong to do that. And I fully understand what you were saying. There is no specific regulation regarding testing following a cu change. I know that. But on the other hand there is no specific reg stating that inserting a live conductor into the left nostril of a customer is not permitted! (should be in some cases though)
What I was trying to say was just because its not specified, doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Personally think it comes under the bit about good workmanship and competent person, or whatever it says. Near the front somewhere. (No , I havent got the regs with me again. Got the nice green one the other day as well. Jesus!) It is open to interpretation, I think. You look at it one way, I another. Can we be friends now? Nice bike. Simon

 

[eiluj68]

However, somewhere in Approved document P (Yes. THE Part P). I think there is a way around this. Obviously (spinlondon, take note!) I havent got it with me, but somewhere in it theres a section telling you what to if you had an unregistered electrician who was qualified. Help me out someone. Have a leaf through Part P

You're right simonspark

Section 1.21 advises that when a qualified electrician who is not registered with a Part P self-certification scheme undertakes notifiable work, local building control should be notified in advance except when it's an emergency and then as soon as possible afterwards. The electrician can then complete the work and issue an appropraite BS7671 certificate, a copy of which should be sent to building control. Building control will take the certificate into account before deciding whether or not the work is safe and complies. They may also ask for proof of the electrician's qualifications. If they're happy they'll issue a building regulation completion certificate.

They don't say what happens if they don't accept that the work is safe and complies...

 

[Rappid]

I wouldn't show them that certificate you've got!!

 

[SW1970]

Hence eiluj68 you should give him a chance to explain and rectify and if that doesn't work it's time for lawyers because if the work is not safe and doesn't comply there'll be costs to have it fixed. And in that case those costs will be above the small claims thresholds. If he was dishing out green certificates he's unlikely to be qualified, insured and experienced to do PIRs, so have that initial chat and think about lawyers after that. Any other advice folks to round this one up?

 

[eiluj68]

I wouldn't show them that certificate you've got!!

I know you guys were discussing technical details of the certificate between you, but noone ever explained what it meant in layman's terms. Are you saying that it shows that the work is unsafe and/or that it doesn't comply? If unsafe it's a big worry!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Just read through all this thread....bloody hell!
Re-the testing of existing circuits on a cu change dispute.....if you are changing to a different protective device for an existing circuit you would have to ensure disconnection times are met by the new device,therefore at the very least a Zs test would be a requirement of bs7671.

 

[SW1970]

eiluj68, I don't think anyone will say it's safe or unsafe without carrying out the PIR. It's a sloppy report by someone that appears not to fully understand what they're doing. It's got some items of concern and the findings that are on the report suggest the installation doesn't meet the latest version of the regulations. You mentioned the kitchen and bathroom were left out of the rewire, those are 2 areas that have to be handled carefully so the question of safety cannot be answered without inspection and testing. He has a duty of care, as does every tradesperson that sells to the public, to look after you. I believe you've been let down in that the installer should have guided you on matters of notification and certification and hasn't done that. Don't panic, but get it looked at sooner rather than later.

 

[eiluj68]

Many thanks SW1970. That sounds like good advice.

It doesn't sound like there's any point in pursuing a completion certificate from building control based on the "certification" we currently hold.

On a positive note, perhaps this thread will be of benefit to anyone unfortunate enough to find themselves in a similar position in the future.

A final thank you to all who have provided constructive feedback on our situation

 

[Des 56]

Try not to panic about safety issues with the installation
Domestic electricians can often do a first class job of the actual installation,then be total numpties when filling out certificates
I wouldn't be surprised if a figure of maybe 70 % are incorrectly filled out
The form filling in our industry ranges from small mistakes to a complete ineptitude and sometimes (especially with large Pir testiing firms)complete fabrications and downright lies

I will repeat my earlier advise,whats done is done as far as the installation and part pants is concerned
It would be the best course of action for all your issues, that a Pir be carried out, and preferably by an electrician qualified,experienced and with perhaps City + Guilds 2391 Test and Inspection qualification.if he is in a scheme as well as suitable,all the better,but dont be fooled by scheme membership or installation competence,it means very little when it comes to test and inspection

The guy doing the Kitchen may be suitable for this role and the certificatiion he will issue and the notification he will carry out will hopefully clear all your percieved problems
Again,try not to worry perhaps needlesly,but be sure to engage an electrician who ticks all the boxes for that Pir,

 

[Dunc]

Christ on a bike this is getting complicated. The certificate that has been issued is a Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) which is to BS7671. The fact that the certificate is green just means that it isn't the style of certificate that an electrician belonging to a self certification scheme (eg NICEIC, NAPIT, ELECSA etc) would normally issue. I know from being with the NIC that the Approved Contractor forms are red and the Domestic Installer forms are purple. Both the red and purple forms display the NIC logo whereas the green ones (despite being available to buy from the NIC shop) do not due to them being available for use by non registered members.

With regards to the details of the certificate that people have pointed out to be wrong i would say the following. There are discrepancies which may show that the contractor has a lack of knowledge when it comes to filling out the certs. This does not mean that his work is unsafe but we can't tell either way without seeing the installation and carrying out a full test and inspection. Filling out certificates can be a bit of a head ache for some contractors, infact i'd wager that everyone on this forum has made a mistake at some point or another through general misunderstanding or a lack of knowledge. Again this does not make them bad electricians it just means that they have a bit more reading to do.

Finally, my gut feeling is that you've caught this guy out and he is not a NIC registered electrician. At a guess, the reason he wants a copy of the certificate is so that he can get a mate who is NIC Approved or a Domestic Installer to fill out a new cert on the correct paper and register it for Part P. This is not allowed by the NIC or any other scheme provider as the work has to be signed off by the person who installed it. Just because this practice isn't allowed doesn't mean it doesn't happen! I would still go with my previous suggestion and get the LABC to test and sign off the work. That way you get your property tested by a competent electrician and the correct certificates with a Part P notification certificate too. I would still send a letter to the electrician detailing your grievances and requesting compensation to cover the costs for the LABC to certify the work. He may pay up, he may not, at that point you can either chalk it up to experience or pursue him further via the courts.