Not sure what our options are. Advice required for homeowner please.

[eiluj68]

Hi

Apologies for the length of this post but I'd like to provide as much information as possible

We moved house last October knowing that the property would require a full rewire. Our electrician completed the rewire (including new consumer unit) in December last year and although we were unhappy about his reliability at points during the process, we were pleased that the job had been completed and that he had issued a certificate detailing the work done. The rewire didn't include any work in the bathroom or kitchen as our intention was to completely refurbish these rooms at a later date.

That time has now come and we decided against using the previous electrician due to the reliability issues mentioned above A local electrician came to the house last night to discuss our requirements. He had a few questions about the exisiting electrical set up so I dug out the 3 page certificate that the previous electrician had issued. Upon viewing the certificate the electrician commented that the certificate didn't show which body the issuing electrician belonged to. He said that without the registration body information and registration number the certificate would not be acceptable to building control. He also said that the previous work should have been notified to building control either prior to work commencing by an unregistered person or afterwards by the registered 'competent person'.

This set off alarm bells. I've spent this morning online trying to find him listed with one of the registered bodies but he doesn't appear on any of the sites I've been to. I've looked at NICEIC, ELECSA, NAPIT,BSI, Kitemark and Benchmark Certification Ltd (CORGI Membership). Are there any others he could be registered with that would allow him to certify his work?

We had used this electrician on a smaller job (wiring an ensuite shower room) at our old home 3 or 4 years ago and had been really pleased with his work. He had issued a certificate for this work too and also came heavily recommended on a local community website, so we had no reason to think he shouldn't be certifying his own work. Although no rewiring took place in the bathroom, kitchen and garden areas I'm assuming that this is notifiable work because he installed a new consumer unit?

I'm not sure what to do next. I haven't spoken with the electrician yet because I want to get my facts straight first. I'm worried about contacting the council because I've read that they can fine the householder upto £5000 if work that should have been notified in advance hasn't been. I also need to understand what we might be forced to do if the certificate is invalid. Are we likely to have to lift all our floorboards again and reexpose all the cables within the walls ?

This is so frustrating because we would never have had the electrician undertake the job if there'd been any suggestion that he could not certify his own work.

Apart from berating us for being so foolish as to take him at his word without checking him out further at the time, can anyone offer any constructive advice on how we should deal with this situation. Although we've lived at our current address less than a year we want to ensure that we don't have any problems when we come to sell in the future.

Many thanks for taking the time to read this and for any useful advice you may be able to provide.

 

[eiluj68]

eiluj68
...But if safety is also your priority,make sure the scheme member and importantly the person actually doing the pir, is competent and dont rely on that membership alone

If you get a pir of a competent electrician you will more than likely have no problems whatsoever when you sell
You will find your concerns at the moment will become wonder at why you thought there was a problem at all

Thank you. Having been the recipient of so many useful and informative responses on this forum has enabled us to take a more balanced view of the situation.

Whilst I'm very unhappy that the electrician lead us into believing that the certificate he issued complied with current standards, I do understand why he might feel that the new regulations are a waste of time and money for someone with his experience. On the other hand, the consumer needs to be protected against someone with little or no experience/competence. Whether the current system addresses this point is debateable.

I do think that it's important for potential customers to be properly informed and to that end I will probably add a post to our local community forum recommendations board suggesting that people check in advance that the electrical work they have done will be certified properly and that they understand the value of that certification. Just because someone is Part P registered it doesn't follow that they will necessarily do a good job. Similarly, someone who isn't Part P registered can still do a good and safe job. However, there are legal obligations on the householder to ensure that any notifiable electrical work done is correctly certified and if they fail do this there is the potential for problems when a property is sold on, even if the local authority building control are too busy or uninterested in getting involved.

 

[SW1970]

Thank you for providing such informative posts eiluj68. Good luck with your next step.

Folks - on the basis that any domestic client is usually a lay person, unless an electrician specifically says work will not be notified to LABC (even though it is supposed to be), I would wager that they have failed in their duty of care to the customer and should be liable for any costs that arise from that failure to notify. Isn't this a case for lawyers, perhaps after a "this is what I think what are you going to do about it" discussion with the sparks?

 

[JamesBrownLive]

Just what is this 'Part P' certificate that people keep referring to? Is it just an acknowledgement that is sent out by a scheme to confirm that works have been duly registered with LABC?

 

[simonspark]

And I think max allowed Zs's are wrong, as well as what Rappid commented on. And there is something going on with his max measured Zs when compared to the R1+R2 and Ze. But doesn't look too bad. He seems to be a sparky. Just didn't log it with building control. Eiluj68, when you get the next load of works done, get a bloke who will log it with building control and ask him to issue you with a completion cert for the work he does, and register it with the council and a periodic inspection of the works the other bloke. That should cover you. Sort of! did.

 

[simonspark]

Good point JamesBrownLive. I have never seen this mythical Part P Certificate. All I've seen is a piece of paper with my name on it, sent to my customer, from the niceic. I think it says certificate on it somewhere. And something about a 6 year guarantee. But Part P? Don't think so

 

[robskiing]

Good reply from simonspark i would say that would be your best course of action if you are thinking of either extending your house or having a new kitchen bathroom etc at least bonding ,characteristics of your supply would be checked to make sure everything was up to scratch.Armed with a new completion cert that would cover you for future house sales instead of paying labc a shedful of money

 

[JamesBrownLive]

Its probably just me, but..... Those RCD disconnection times seem incorrect, cooker excepted.
I thought the only circuits that were allowed 5s times were those over 32a and distribution circuits (411.3.2.2)?

Cheers

 

[simonspark]

Hang on. There are many errors here. PSSC 0,23 KA? That would mean a Ze of 10 ohms at 230 volts. Nominal voltages of 230 and 240 instead of 400 and 230. All the circuits should be 0.4 disconnection time. And crazy rcd disconnection times. 11.4 ms etc. My meter only goes down to the nearest hundredth of a second. Not thousandth. Or is that just me with me old meter? Calibrated mind you!

 

[simonspark]

And I wager the reference methods are wrong

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Two things I would like to point out.
Firstly, it is the person ordering the work who is responsible for notification, not the person carrying out the work.
Secondly, there is no requirement to test existing circuits when conducting a board change.

 

[simonspark]

You are wrong. If there are no requirements to test the final circuits following a board change, then it follows that you can reconnect, lets say, old virs with no earth. Or even lighting circuits wired in twin pvc with no earths. It is down to you as the electrician to highlight these problems to the customer before commencing the works. If you install rcd protection as you probably need to in most circumstances, and the new rcd then trips when the circuit is energized, do you say "You got a problem there mate" take the money and go home?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If I'm wrong, then you will be able to quote the Regulation that shows such.

 

[Des 56]

You are wrong. ?

I think it may be time to get behind the bunker with heads down

 

[simonspark]

I think its about workmanship and suitability of equipment in service. Havent got regs book to hand, so cant quote. Sorry

 

[simonspark]

There is no direct reference to it. However, there are many odd little nuances in the regs. It says you can have a wall mounted light switch in a bathroom. Read on a bit more and it says you can only install fixtures that are suitable to the environment. Which means you cant have a wall mounted switch in aforementioned bathroom

 

[JamesBrownLive]

If I'm wrong, then you will be able to quote the Regulation that shows such.

631.1

Maybe :smilewinkgrin:

Edit: Hold on, are we talking about before the work is undertaken?

 

[simonspark]

Plus!!!!!!!! The few people who have been fined have been the tradesmen that have installed the electrical equipment. All that happens to the householder is that when they sell up, a sharp-eyed solicitor will see some works have been carried out and that the purchaser will get a few thousand quid knocked off the price

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If you inspected and tested the installation before the work was conducted, it would be a PIR.
The only requirement for any pre-testing, is to verify that the rating of the existing equipment is adequate, and that the earthing and bonding arrangements are adequate for whatever protective measure is intended to be applied for the safety of the alteration or addition.
All 631.1 requires you to do is to issue an EIC, detail the extent of the work covered by the Certificate and include a record of the inspection and the results of testing.
It doesn't say anything about inspecting and testing existing circuits.

 

[simonspark]

So you would happily energize an unsafe circuit?

 

[simonspark]

The only requirement for any pre-testing, is to verify that the rating of the existing equipment is adequate, and that the earthing and bonding arrangements are adequate for whatever protective measure is intended to be applied for the safety of the alteration or addition
How do you do this without testing the installation

 

[JamesBrownLive]

All 631.1 requires you to do is to issue an EIC, detail the extent of the work covered by the Certificate and include a record of the inspection and the results of testing.
It doesn't say anything about inspecting and testin existing circuits.

I thought that with a board change, all circuits are considered as having been altered, and would then need to be tested?

Edit: I'm not trying to argue, just get a better understanding. I'll never learn unless people tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Sorry Simon, but is that the basis of your argumant?
I'm wrong, but you can't quote a Regulation as you haven't got a copy of BS7671 to hand, some guff about wall switches in bathrooms, and some tradesmen have been fined?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The only requirement for any pre-testing, is to verify that the rating of the existing equipment is adequate, and that the earthing and bonding arrangements are adequate for whatever protective measure is intended to be applied for the safety of the alteration or addition
How do you do this without testing the installation

Inspection.

 

[simonspark]

James Brown has it! I agree. Spinlondon, no idea what you are going on about now!! Im smiling, but dont know how to get those little smiley things up without seeming a bit nasty!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I thought that with a board change, all circuits are considered as having been altered, and would then need to be tested?

Edit: I'm not trying to argue, just get a better understanding. I'll never learn unless people tell me I'm wrong.

In what way would the circuits have been altered?

 

[simonspark]

sorry mate, but to inspect the earth at a light switch, say, do you take it off the wall, see the little green and yellow devil and presume its ok?

 

[simonspark]

Its been altered by changing the protected device. Did you know that technically, we should issue a completion cert if we change a circuit breaker or fuse?

 

[simonspark]

Meant protective, not protected. Whoops

 

[JamesBrownLive]

In what way would the circuits have been altered?

I'd have to agree with Simon on this one, I believe that when you change a circuit's protective device, that is considered an alteration.

However, this thread seems to have gone off at a tangent....

What started out as a discussion about some of the test results on the attached paperwork has now taken a rather ugly turn.

I do not profess to know it all, or indeed very much for that matter, as I am still in training. All I try and do is ask pertinent questions when I feel I come across a gap in my knowledge, and believe me there are plenty of them.
As I said previously, I have no problem in being told I am wrong.

My main question was one about RCD disconnection times, and apart from Simon, nobody has commented on it. I've said all I am going to re: this thread, if someone wants to comment on my original comment, then fine. Other than that it's off to bed for me

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Simon, I do wish you would stop quoting non-existant Regulations.
Perhaps it would be better for you to wait until you have a copy of BS7671 to hand.
Regulation 131.8:"No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the conditionof any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing & bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate."
Could you please explain how testing would prove that the equipment of an existing installation is not rated sufficiently, or in an adequate condition to have the board changed?

 

[eiluj68]

I've read through all the recent posts but can't pretend to understand the technical details. Are you saying that the certificate is flagging up some major problems with the installation? Is it unsafe?

Also, if we opt for a PIR with a registered and competent electrician (probably the same one that works on the bathroom electrics) what are the likely outcomes?

My (layman's) understanding is that a PIR is like a car MOT in that the result is either a pass or a fail. If it's a fail I expect that whatever problems have been flagged up have to be fixed before another PIR is carried out. Is that correct? Do we have to pay for each repeat PIR?

 

[eiluj68]

I've read through all the recent posts but can't pretend to understand the technical details. Are you saying that the certificate is flagging up some major problems with the installation? Is it unsafe?

Also, if we opt for a PIR with a registered and competent electrician (probably the same one that works on the bathroom electrics) what are the likely outcomes?

My (layman's) understanding is that a PIR is like a car MOT in that the result is either a pass or a fail. If it's a fail I expect that whatever problems have been flagged up have to be fixed before another PIR is carried out. Is that correct? Do we have to pay for each repeat PIR?

Hi,
Can anyone help with my queries above please? All the technical comments about the certificate I posted are beyond my knowledge. Can anyone give me a summary in layman's terms please?
Many thanks

 

[Knobhead]

Get whoever does the PIR to do the remedial work. It’s a bit like an MOT if the garage does the work they don’t charge for the second test.

 

[Rappid]

eiluj68

My personal opinion is that although the electrician may have done a good job, the certificate is a load of rubbish.
The first page under Design, Construction, Inspection and Testing, he filled out BS7671,2008 ammended to 2010.
Every electrician knows there was no ammendment in 2010, the first ammendment to BS7671 2008 comes out Jan 2012 and lots of errors from there on.
As Tony says, get a PIR done.
Whereabouts are you? there are a lot of great electricians on this site, I'm sure someone would be happy to come out and have a look.

 

[eiluj68]

eiluj68
Whereabouts are you? there are a lot of great electricians on this site, I'm sure someone would be happy to come out and have a look.

We're in South East London.

This is getting weird now !
Just spoke with the electrician again and he's asked me to photocopy the certificate for him. He asked to collect it tomorrow. He then says he'll take it to the NICEIC and get them to reissue the certificate with their credentials on it. It will take 4-6 weeks for the new certificate to reach us. He also said he doesn't bother with the NIC forms usually because it costs him money each time he lodges one with them, but if building control want a copy he'll get our certificate reissued.

I didn't want him back at the house so I've agreed to scan the certificate and email it to him. I'll ask him for his NICEIC registration number at the same time. I imagine he's playing for time?

 

[Octopus]

As a homeowner I guess this 77+ answer thread is probably getting too complex for you.

Bottom line, did the electrician register the job with NICEIC or not? Sounds rather odd to me!

 

[eiluj68]

As a homeowner I guess this 77+ answer thread is probably getting too complex for you.

Bottom line, did the electrician register the job with NICEIC or not? Sounds rather odd to me!

I don't see how he can have. NICEIC confirmed that they had noone registered with his name at either of the two addresses I have for him.

How long does it take for an electrician to register and obtain a registration number from NICEIC ? Could it be 4-6 weeks ?

 

[Rappid]

He cant just get a registration number from the NICEIC. Before he joins the NIC, he has to have his work assessed by the NIC before he becomes a member.
He also needs to make sure he has the right documents as well as public liability insurance in place before his assessment.

 

[Rappid]

I think he did...

Edit : See #36

 

[eiluj68]

I can't be bothered right now to read back through 7 pages of posts, but from memory I don't think the guy ever claimed to be registered with NICEIC, did he?

Quick recap...

Before the job started the electrician understood that we needed the work to be certified. We didn't specify what type of certificate (due to our lack of knowledge) and he didn't ask. Registration to various organisations was not discussed. The job was completed to our satisfaction although we weren't impressed with his reliability (not turning up when expected).

Fast forward 8 months.
We ask a different electrician to quote for electrical work as part of a bathroom refurbishment. This electrician queries the certificate we were issued with and tells us that there should be a note of the registration body and the electrician's registration number on the certificate. We should also have received a certificate from building control following their receipt of their copy of the certificate from the electrician. We don't have this.

We contact the original electrician. He claims that building control do not need to be involved and that his certificate is sufficient. He claims to have sent a copy of the certificate he issued to NICEIC and that they would have forwarded a copy to the local building control if it were required.

A conversation with local building control confirms that the work is notifiable work under Part P regulations and that the certificate issued does not prove compliance. They say that we should go back to the electrican and request the correct BS-7671 certificate. They suggest that I contact NICEIC to check the electrician is registered as he implied during the telephone conversation earlier in the day.

We receive an email back from NICEIC advising that the electrician is not registered with them at either or the two addresses we provided them with. One was the address on the certificate and the other was the address he was living at with his partner.

I speak with the electrician again today, telling him what building control have said. I ask him for the BS-7671 certificate and for a copy to go to building control. At this stage I was expecting him to come clean and retract his previous claim to be registered with NICEIC but instead, he has asked for a copy of the original certificate which he says he will take to NICEIC. He will ask them to reissue the certificate with their credentials. It will take 4-6 weeks before this replacement certificate reaches us.

This is the point we're now at. I have agreed to scan and email the certificate to him (to avoid him coming to the house tomorrow) but this seems to be a waste of time if he isn't registered. I guess I should probably just cut to the chase now and ask him for his registration number.