Range Oven Isolator Position Deemed Code 1 on a PIR ???

baldsparkies · Mar 4, 2011

Have been asked to provide an honest opinion on this one.
A Range oven has a 45 amp double pole isolation switch fitted into the wall behind it.
Access is via a storage cupboard which is a built in part of the range with an open back.
So, you open the door, reach in side, and turn it off.
Ok so,
1 The isolator is within two meters.
2 Its mounted within the fabric of the building,(The back wall) and not on a kitchen unit.
3 It was easy to access, although I would say not readily visible. (And that would be my only point of issue, and thats with my Mr fussy head on)
So at very worse, a code 4 imho. Or maybe list it as a departure with a location label on view. ie, werz the isolator? its in yer.

Anyway, the jobs been signed off by the guys who installed it Kitchen fitters. And from what I can see its a nice job all round cu is 17th spec.
I commented to the homeowner that he should point out to the guy doing the pir that a code 1 was not justifiable and explained why.
What opinions would you have on this guys and girls. Would be interested in your opinions.
Oh by the way,
The guy doing the pir is a service engineer, who reckons the isolator wasnt accessible, cant agree though cus I reached it with ease, I was resting on my zimmer frame though

DurhamSparky · Mar 4, 2011

no code! IMO

code 4 is not to current standards 7671:2008 etc

as stated you can get to it, its not hidden and not going to get damaged /already is damaged

PC Electrics · Mar 4, 2011

Are you saying that you have to open a door on the range and reach through it to get to the isol which is directly behind the unit?

baldsparkies · Mar 4, 2011

PC Electrics said:
Are you saying that you have to open a door on the range and reach through it to get to the isol which is directly behind the unit?

Exactly right PC, I would say its accessible, but not readily visible, but thats me, and I know its a debatable situation open to interpretation and opinion.As Durham says he wouldn't code it and I can see thats fair. But to give this a code 1 is not correct and on that point I would argue.

PC Electrics · Mar 4, 2011

I'd say code 2 then.

If there's a problem with the range which requires isolation then one should be able to get at the isolator without having to touch the range itself (what if the casing is live?).

baldsparkies · Mar 5, 2011

PC Electrics said:
I'd say code 2 then.

If there's a problem with the range which requires isolation then one should be able to get at the isolator without having to touch the range itself (what if the casing is live?).

Its on a rcbo at the c/u, Also youcould say the same about an immersion heater isolator in an airing cudboard. How many time have those been hidden way back behind shelves ect and stacked full of towels underwear and sometimes even worse. To be fair the isolation switch is for servicing.
In the event of a live fault overcurrent or earth leakage devices should kick in under ADS (Automatic Disconnection of Supply) I would say a code 2 would also be over the top mate to be fair.

nick611 · Mar 5, 2011

i would never code 2 this, it can only be a 4 [not in plain view] . i think the first post was correct its not A1 but it certainly presents no real danger

Engineer54 · Mar 5, 2011

As PC states quite rightly above, if this isolation switch is within the confines of the range itself, ....it Shouldn't Be!!! Don't care if it is RCD protected, they can fail, and often DO!!! Apart from all that, a means of emergency isolation should be in plain view, and not enclosed in any cabinet, or behind any closed doors.

Don't have a clue as to what code is which, as i don't use them, what i AM saying, is that the location of that range cooker isolater is Wrong!!!

baldsparkies · Mar 5, 2011

Engineer54 said:
As PC states quite rightly above, if this isolation switch is within the confines of the range itself, ....it Shouldn't Be!!! Don't care if it is RCD protected, they can fail, and often DO!!! Apart from all that, a means of emergency isolation should be in plain view, and not enclosed in any cabinet, or behind any closed doors.

Don't have a clue as to what code is which, as i don't use them, what i AM saying, is that the location of that range cooker isolater is Wrong!!!

Its not a lathe or a bench saw in a commercial premises. That would require emergency isolation and I would agree.
This is a range oven in a domestic kitchen. The local isolation is for servicing purposes, not emergency shutdown. I feel this is where the confusion comes into play. Its all about the regs and I would go for BS7671 clarifying as to what and what not local isolation is for and the purpose it intends to serve within the merits of the installation and its enviroment.
If asked to supply Emergency isolation I would be going for a big red mushroom, within arms reach of the appliance, clearly visible, and operated by a contactor with manual reset to prevent accidental re energising of the circuit.
A range double pole isolator would not in my opinion be used for anything other than servicing. Like I said its all open to interpritation and you can see how varied and different the views are on this.
One other point, should the range become live, I would deem an rcd a far better means of isolation than a double pole switch, which would need to be physicaly turned off.
Can you imagine a situation where someone is cooking on the range, only to find themselves receiving a fatal electric shock. And relying on the isolator to disconnect the supply ?? utter nonsense of course.
A good solid earth fault return path along with suitable over current device and yes additional protection by means of a 30ma RCD for and i say again automatic disconnection of the supply would be the real world way forward.
Once the appliance has been deemed faulty by the above method then along comes your service engineer to repair it. Hello local isolation.

Deleted member 9648 · Mar 5, 2011

Wot Baldsparkies said....complete and utter common sense

Engineer54 · Mar 5, 2011

Sorry, ....but in all my years in this industry, the means of local isolation, be it for emergency or otherwise, Must be in plain view, and readily accessable, and Never concealed behind a closed door of any kind!!! Now having that means of electrical isolation behind a metal door that is part of the appliance it will be isolating, is a nonsense!!!

It seems here, that many are trying to say it's OK to hide, or that it doesn't really matter the local means of isolation is not readily accessible. Well surprise surprise, it does matter and is important!!

Watering down Regulations and good working practice's that have been in place longer than most of you have been alive, just to suit yourself or a situation as it arises, isn't going to cut it!!!

And if commonsense doesn't show you that, then god help the future of this industry...

DurhamSparky · Mar 5, 2011

just about to fit a rang cooker tomorrow and unable to fit a pleasing 2pole switch above bench height!

its going in the unit next to the cooker at customer request!

baldsparkies · Mar 5, 2011

Is the location of the isolator accessible YES had no problem getting to it.
Is it part of the appliance NO its fitted to the block work plastered wall in the service void at the back of the appliance. The back of the appliance is open and once the range door to that compartment is opened the isolator is visible and easy to get to.
Is the local isolation for emergency shut down NO its not.
Is it for maintenance use YES it is.
What if any regulation would this be a departure from. (Not in plain site nothing more.)
Would I expect the home owner to ruin a brand new kitchen fit out along with his tiles, to re locate an isolator above the worktop, instead of where it sits at the moment NO I would not.
Forty years in the industry, common sense prevailing, and Thank God managed to avoid becoming a jobs worth.