Range Oven Isolator Position Deemed Code 1 on a PIR ???

[baldsparkies]

You can make all the excuses you can think of or dream up, to make this situation seem acceptable, your only fooling yourselves, and the gullible, ..no-one else!!!

Commonsense, ...huh , that's got to be a laugh!! ...Right??

Don't you just love a good debate xx

 

[Deleted member 26818]

There is no longer a requirement for a cooker switch to be within 2 meters of the cooker. There hasn't been now for over 20 years.
If the isolation is required for in the event of a fire, surely placing the isolator perhaps on the other side of the room from the cooker would be a safer option?

 

[pushrod]

I am not going to be in someone's house using their cooker so i would not be looking for an isolator it is not like it is a factory or public place. As an owner of said house having been told that really it should be visible it is up to him/her to either put a label or inform users of the cooker as to where the isolator is imo.

BS 7671 is a non statutory document it is for guidance. A PIR is an opinion from an experienced and competent person, is what i was taught, and therefore differences can exist.

 

[baldsparkies]

There is no longer a requirement for a cooker switch to be within 2 meters of the cooker. There hasn't been now for over 20 years.
If the isolation is required for in the event of a fire, surely placing the isolator perhaps on the other side of the room from the cooker would be a safer option?

Thats news to me spin, genuinely not seen it in the regs. If so then why bother with local isolation for the cooker anyway ? Might just as well turn of the mcb/pull the fuse in the c/u.
I tend to do that anyway, regardless of isolators.
I was asked to service an electric chair once, but point blank refused. Bl##dy thing was a death trap.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Went out when the 16th came in.
The last mention of it in the 15th, was that you could have two cookers on one switch if they were both within two meters of the switch.

 

[Engineer54]

What if any regulation would this be a departure from. (Not in plain site nothing more.)
Would I expect the home owner to ruin a brand new kitchen fit out along with his tiles, to re locate an isolator above the worktop, instead of where it sits at the moment NO I would not.
Forty years in the industry, common sense prevailing, and Thank God managed to avoid becoming a jobs worth.

No-ones saying that the home owner should change anything!! Just don't try and make out the present installation is a good one, because you know that it's NOT!! 40 Years in the industry, then you of all people should know better!!

Nothing to do with being a jobsworth, you know, or should know the requirements for local isolation, it's been around for most of that 40 years you've been in the industry. A cooker panel switch is not Just a maintenance isolator, if anyone was going to do any maintenance on a cooker, they would i hope remove the power at the DB or CU. Just because the range cabinet has an open back means nothing, you are still having to access that isolator through the appliance that isolator is controlling!! Is that good installation practice , ...No it's not and you dammed well know it's not!! End of Storey!!!

 

[DurhamSparky]

mine is still getting fitted in a unit tomorrow as thats where the customer wants it! its safe and its accessible and the money is paying my mortgage!

 

[baldsparkies]

I only ask myself if I would lose any sleep if the install was in MY home. I would not. Would I install that way myself no. but once done, I would not mess around changing it, just really would be pointless, sorry but the fact is some will agree, some will disagree, As far as good electrical practice. The correct cable sizing, earthing arrangements, equipment used, type of protection ect. are far more important to me. End of Storey, nope.
If its not this there will be something else to debate and thats a fact.
PS Have you read Spinlondons comments?? Now theres a spanner in yer works.

 

[Engineer54]

If the isolation is required for in the event of a fire, surely placing the isolator perhaps on the other side of the room from the cooker would be a safer option?

Quite right, ...But in clear sight and freely accessable, and not behind any closed doors!!! It may not be the home owner in the kitchen at that time...

 

[Engineer54]

PS Have you read Spinlondons comments?? Now theres a spanner in yer works.

What spanner are you talking about?? Nothing he has posted here condones this installation. Never said that a cooker controller needs to be within 2 m, (You said that) if that's what your talking about ...lol!!! I'm only talking about the installation as described by yourself. Is it installed correctly ..No it isn't!! have i said it should now be changed?? ...no i haven't!!!
So what's the spanner you seem so happy about ??

 

[Paul.M]

Going back to the question I would not code it. Reg 537.1.4 for location of isolation "shall be provided as near practicable". So location is fine, its accessible and the user/homeowner knows where it is and can tell anyone else that may use it. It's not in a locked cupboard and for emergency cut off the mcb at the c/u can be used. At worst I would make a note on the cert just incase they sell the house without telling the new owners how to turn on the cooker.

 

[flukey]

ive been away far too long, miss a good old difference of opinion like this one

 

[Deleted member 9648]

You can make all the excuses you can think of or dream up, to make this situation seem acceptable, your only fooling yourselves, and the gullible, ..no-one else!!!

Commonsense, ...huh , that's got to be a laugh!! ...Right??

God help us if it turns out to be fed from a remote CU as well

 

[baldsparkies]

Everyone has there opinion on this, and thats good for debate.
I would never condone anything that isnt deemed electrically safe.
But getting back to the real question ie should this warrent a code 1 ie the user is in immediate danger from the install.
I would say definately not. Will give the niceic a ring in the morning and talk to there tech dept. The guy giving a code 1 is a service engineer and I have since found that he is not a registered sparks.
Another sparks has also looked at the job and he agreed with my opinion in that it would be a code 4 at most.
The service guy was refusing to look at a dishwasher because it was plugged into a socket behind. Didnt want to move it whilst still switched on ????
Sorry but I will never be of any opinion other than this guy is a jobsworth at best, and a lazy so and so at worst who will find any reason to get out of doing the job.
I have come across them before and will come across them again.
As said will check with the nic in the morning.

 

[flukey]

As said will check with the nic in the morning.

be good to hear what they have to say on the matter

 

[Engineer54]

baldsparkies,

I take it this installation has nothing to do with you, and was designed and installed by others, Correct??
The fact of the matter is, as an installation it has being badly designed, even if it is electrically safe. Socket outlets supplying floor standing appliances should be controlled/isolated from above worktop locations via switched FCU. The rear socket outlet then just becomes a means of connection to the appliance, ...doesn't even matter if the socket outlet is in an adjacent cabinet.

Seems the problem is often down to the home owners not wanting to see these electrical accessories above the worktop. They however have no concept of safety, they just want things to look good!! Many actually regret having all these electrical accessories hidden, for more reasons than one, and especially when a fault occurs, and all there cupboards have to be cleared out to gain access to these hidden accessories.

Now i have no idea about these codes that your all talking about, or what they mean. As stated before, at this stage it's not a question of pulling the installation apart, it's just not economical, or warranted. That doesn't however make it right, and what i can't make out, is the amount of electricians willing to comment that nothing is wrong with this installation, when it's clear as daylight that the design/layout is Wrong!!!

 

[flukey]

Now i have no idea about these codes that your all talking about, or what they mean. As stated before, at this stage it's not a question of pulling the installation apart, it's just not economical, or warranted. That doesn't however make it right, and what i can't make out, is the amount of electricians willing to comment that nothing is wrong with this installation, when it's clear as daylight that the design/layout is Wrong!!!

think you are a bit off topic here, from what ive read noone has said its right, the op was whether the service engineer was right in issuing a code 1 for the location.
you will be well aware that the majority of kitchens have these isolators and the like installed in cupboards etc, something i dont agree with but have to live with because thats whats there!!
if op had designed the circuit then you would think he would have the isolator in a sensible place.
he didnt design it and from what i have read i alos wouldnt feel the need to code it, just comment on it

 

[baldsparkies]

Thanks for your concern Engineer, I appreciate you are unsure about codings and there rellevance on a pir, but this is what the post is really concerned with ie the correct application of a code in relation to what its being applied to. Code 1 relates to an immediate danger being present, and thats really not the case. Code 4 on the other hand is a non compliance and the question has to be a non compliance with what ??
Below are official extracts from documents that I have researched and its quite an eye opener.
Its important that we are not so entranched in what we believe to be right that we are not hearing what others are saying.
We have to be practical and take each situation in its own merit.
Risk assesment by fire officers as well as electrical engineers within the iee are also important factors to be considered so please feel free to read on.

(Quote) !!!

In the event of a cooking related incident, the controls at the front of the cooking device could still be used to remove heat.


In the event of an electrical fault with an appliance, if installed properly, the CPD/s at the source of that circuit should be able to disconnect power due to ADS.

There is nothing to say you must have the isolator in clear view.

This is a misconception held by some electricians depending on their belief of the intended purpose of the isolator.
In domestic (not commercial/industrial) environments, the primary use of a cooker isolator is for maintenance.

Cooking starts more than half of accidental fires at home. Many kitchen fires happen when people are not paying attention or they leave things unattended.
If an electrical appliance catches fire, don’t throw water on it. If it is safe to do so, you may be able to put out the fire immediately by:

• pulling the appliance’s plug out
  [*]switching off the power at the fuse box
  

If the fire doesn’t go out, get out of the house, stay out and call 999.

 

[telectrix]

and start peeling potatoes to replace the chips you've set on fire.

 

[Engineer54]

As a final comment on this thread, from what you have explained, i would agree a code 4 would be the most appropriate coding.

Further, normally ''readily accessible'' is the term given to means of disconnection, eg...Isolators and the like!!
That has never meant located behind a closed door i'm afraid. I'm not an Electrician, i'm an Engineer that has to make decisions on a regular basis, concerning similar installations, in both commercial and domestic environments, so i'm under no misconceptions, i work to project specifications, which are generally based on Regulations and best practices...

From your last quote in your post '' pulling the appliance plug out'' as a first means of disconnection, doesn't really fit a range cooker However if you replaced the wording to ''Cooker control panel'' then it would be correctly identified as the first means of disconnection, and of course switching off of the CU, or MCB would be the second and last means of disconnection..

To be honest baldparkies, (and this has nothing to do with yourself) i've been more than a little dismayed at the lowering of general standards within the UK's electrical industry, and the overall acceptance of those lower standards. So please don't take anything stated in this thread by myself as being directed at you personally, it was never meant in that way.